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Unpopular Opinions - Lucy style


Annaleigh

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I don't think it's fair to compare Mary Jane to Vivian because Mary Jane Croft served a very different purpose on the show than Vivian Vance. Lucille Ball had made a decision that she would not replace Vivian Vance, and even stated at least once that Vivian was irreplaceable, so she wasn't going to try. And that's not why Mary Jane was there. Between TLS and HL, there were very few occasions when Mary Jane was used in a Vivian/Ethel-like capacity. You can probably name them all on one hand. Unlike Vivian Vance, Mary Jane Croft's real purpose on the show was to help set up the plot, then Lucy would go off on some escapade with Mr. Mooney/Harry or some guest star, not Mary Jane. Usually, Mary Jane would only appear in the opening moments of the show, perhaps reemerge at the end, but would be seen very little (if at all) in between. She was simply a plot device -- much like Bea Benaderet's Miss Ritter or Bobby, the bellboy on I Love Lucy -- not a second banana.

Best explanation on this subject. Thank you! You don't compare them, they complimented Lucy in different ways and their relationships were completely different. Viv was Lucy's partner in crime and Mary Jane was a confidant.

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Best explanation on this subject. Thank you! You don't compare them, they complimented Lucy in different ways and their relationships were completely different. Viv was Lucy's partner in crime and Mary Jane was a confidant.

 

Exactly (and thank YOU :). I often hear Mary Jane's character being criticized for not being on par with the Vivian/Ethel character. But the fact is, she was never intended to be that type of support, at all. She was there for a totally different purpose, and I think she served that purpose well.

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I do not like "Lucy Goes To The Hospital."

 

I do not think "Lucy and Harpo Marx" is one of the series' classic episodes.

 

I love the country episodes of I LOVE LUCY.

 

I prefer Season Three of THE LUCY SHOW to Season Two.

 

I liked "Lucy, The Superwoman."

 

While I liked Lucy having a friend post-Vivian and felt that it was necessary, I don't think the Mary Jane character was as funny or developed as she needed to be... in both series.

 

I think HERE'S LUCY Season One is fantastic, but I do not care for Seasons Two and Three much at all.

 

I think it took Lucie Arnaz more than a few seasons to become a strong player. And the episodes that give her a lot to do are only successful if Lucy has as much or more to do.

 

I think the increasing reliance on cue cards really hampered a lot of Lucy's performances. And I think it is noticeable.

 

I'm not wild about the hospital episode either. It's touching, but the best scene occurs less than halfway into it (THIS IS IT!)

 

And I also prefer season 3 of TLS to season 2 overall. Season 2 was really hit and miss with me. I'm glad to have it for the sake of completeness but I rarely watch it.

 

You're right, it did take a few years before Lucie Arnaz really was able to offer much. But in her defense, she'd be the first to tell you that the writers didn't know what she could do early on so therefore didn't give her much.

 

And I agree with the follow-up comments regarding Mary Jane. Under different circumstances it would've been great to see her do more, but she fulfilled a different yet necessary part on the show after Viv was gone.

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I feel Lucy in the Hospital started out great but the ending Voodoo number with Ricky was stupid and unnecessary. I think no music like that should be in a sentimental eposide. I find that season one of here's Lucy is on par with The Lucy Show season 4. Both have some bad shows but both also have great classic eposides. Overall Here's Lucy 1 is slightly better. I like the move to the country on I Love Lucy Season 6 and feel it was a great change of pace and most of I Love Lucy Season 1 was great. I do feel Mary jane was underused but she did have her moments and seem content with her position on the show. Lucie did not become her best till later in Here's Lucy but she did her best learning as she was going. The writers too learned about her talents and used the whole ensemble more in Season 5 and 6 which made some great, realistic shows that were classic.

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I feel Lucy in the Hospital started out great but the ending Voodoo number with Ricky was stupid and unnecessary. I think no music like that should be in a sentimental eposide. I find that season one of here's Lucy is on par with The Lucy Show season 4. Both have some bad shows but both also have great classic eposides. Overall Here's Lucy 1 is slightly better. I like the move to the country on I Love Lucy Season 6 and feel it was a great change of pace and most of I Love Lucy Season 1 was great. I do feel Mary jane was underused but she did have her moments and seem content with her position on the show. Lucie did not become her best till later in Here's Lucy but she did her best learning as she was going. The writers too learned about her talents and used the whole ensemble more in Season 5 and 6 which made some great, realistic shows that were classic.

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Okay, here's something really controversial:

 

I personally feel that all the travel the Ricardo's did in the later years was overdone. I mean, The Golden Girls spent 7 years in that house and rarely left it for more than one episode at a time. Were the writers really that pressed to think of more NYC storylines? Were they really that bored after just a few short years? I mean, the Ricardos barely had one season in their bigger apartment before they were flitting off all across the globe. Then Lucy wanted the characters to move to the country because she was sick of that apartment set? They barely spent any time filming on it after season 3!

 

It was handled very well, to be sure, and Hollywood and Europe did spawn some enjoyable episodes (though I find most overrated), but especially by the Europe trip it seemed they were trying a bit too hard to me. Had it stuck around until the moon landing they probably would've had the Ricardos and the Mertzes traveling the galaxy by the end of the series and setting up interplanetary colonies. If they were that fickle about globetrotting who knows what would've happened!

 

Not to mention Lucy's furniture changes! Fidelman was right in The Lucy Book that Lucy Ricardo had more new couches in 6 years than most people have in a lifetime. I love the show, but wish it had been more consistent at times and didn't constantly feel pressure to shake things up so much. Same thing with the hour-long shows. I think the show had gotten way too ambitious by that point...so far removed from its humble origins. And let's face it, episodes filled with new sets, guest stars and crappy stock footage just don't add up to great comedy in a tiny little apartment. That's where the real magic happened.

 

I'll probably get lynched for this, but do keep in mind I STILL love the show and a number of those later episodes. I just wonder if all of it was really necessary to keep it going.

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I wasn't trying to compare Vivian to Mary Jane. No one could be Vivian and she shouldn't have to be. But the character of Mary Jane, plot device or confidant or what have you, never gave me many laughs or felt very interesting. I am not knocking the actress, I'm knocking the character. Even if Vivian never existed, I would not like the character. (Though I am looking forward to her work in Season Six of HERE'S LUCY, which I have yet to see.) It comes down to a sense of character continuity more than anything else.

 

And, I agree LotusBud. I liked the travel episodes, in general, but I too felt that the European Tour and Florida Vacation were (well-done) attempts to find new stories because the writers were struggling in the apartment. Similarly, though the script construction remained sharp, I think the stories in the apartment episodes of Season Six are considerably weaker than anything written since Season One. But, as I said, I loved pretty much everything about the Country episodes. My only complaint would be that the plot of Lucy wanting to be in show business was dropped, and that we never got see characters like Carolyn or Mrs. Trumbull again. But I thought the stories were fresher and reinvigorating.

 

And, another (I think) unpopular opinion: I like "Ricky Sells The Car." Not a classic, but funny nonetheless.

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Mary Jane got better utilized later on both on TLS and Here's Lucy. She had some great moments in season 6, I thought...more so than her previous 2 seasons. I personally loved the Sheldon Leonard episode, because it's the one occasion that Mary Jane truly did take over what Viv did.

 

Which brings up another question. Which Mary Jane character did you prefer on TLS: Audrey Simmons or Mary Jane Lewis? Audrey may not have appeared much, but she had a bit more flavour than Mary Jane did at first. I must hand it to Mary Jane Croft: although it's obviously the same actress playing both parts, she did a terrific job playing each character differently from each another. Audrey was very much a Betty Ramsey clone overall, while "Mary Jane" was a totally new creation.

 

It's amazing to think that Mary Jane Lewis is played by the same woman who did snobbish Daisy Enright and Cynthia Harcourt back in the 50s. She could really be distinctive and versatile!

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Mary Jane got better utilized later on both on TLS and Here's Lucy. She had some great moments in season 6, I thought...more so than her previous 2 seasons. I personally loved the Sheldon Leonard episode, because it's the one occasion that Mary Jane truly did take over what Viv did.

 

Which brings up another question. Which Mary Jane character did you prefer on TLS: Audrey Simmons or Mary Jane Lewis? Audrey may not have appeared much, but she had a bit more flavour than Mary Jane did at first. I must hand it to Mary Jane Croft: although it's obviously the same actress playing both parts, she did a terrific job playing each character differently from each another. Audrey was very much a Betty Ramsey clone overall, while "Mary Jane" was a totally new creation.

 

It's amazing to think that Mary Jane Lewis is played by the same woman who did snobbish Daisy Enright and Cynthia Harcourt back in the 50s. She could really be distinctive and versatile!

 

I've always thought Mary Jane's voice (the character's) was super annoying. I liked the Audrey Simmons character better.

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I love all the Tennessee Ernie Ford episodes. Lucy must have loved him too or else she would have never worked with him so much.

 

I can't stand it when William Frawley sings or "performs" as an entertainer. That vaudeville schtick belongs in the 19th century not on tv.

 

I think Desi Arnaz Jr is dramatically better on Here's Lucy than Lucie Arnaz is, and especially much more natural in his performance. Sometimes Little Lucie is so bad with her dinner-theatre delivery I have to fight the urge to turn the dvd off!

 

It's tiresome when Lucy Carmichael/Carter is wowed by every "B" list star she meets.

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I love all the Tennessee Ernie Ford episodes. Lucy must have loved him too or else she would have never worked with him so much.

 

I can't stand it when William Frawley sings or "performs" as an entertainer. That vaudeville schtick belongs in the 19th century not on tv.

 

I think Desi Arnaz Jr is dramatically better on Here's Lucy than Lucie Arnaz is, and especially much more natural in his performance. Sometimes Little Lucie is so bad with her dinner-theatre delivery I have to fight the urge to turn the dvd off!

 

It's tiresome when Lucy Carmichael/Carter is wowed by every "B" list star she meets.

 

 

Part of me wonders what Here's Lucy would've been like had Desi stuck around and Lucie left. Lucie had her moments, but especially early on her acting was a bit obvious.

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I do not like "Lucy Goes To The Hospital."

 

I do not think "Lucy and Harpo Marx" is one of the series' classic episodes.

 

I love the country episodes of I LOVE LUCY.

 

I prefer Season Three of THE LUCY SHOW to Season Two.

 

I liked "Lucy, The Superwoman."

 

While I liked Lucy having a friend post-Vivian and felt that it was necessary, I don't think the Mary Jane character was as funny or developed as she needed to be... in both series.

 

I think HERE'S LUCY Season One is fantastic, but I do not care for Seasons Two and Three much at all.

 

I think it took Lucie Arnaz more than a few seasons to become a strong player. And the episodes that give her a lot to do are only successful if Lucy has as much or more to do.

 

I think the increasing reliance on cue cards really hampered a lot of Lucy's performances. And I think it is noticeable.

Ok, i was with you for every one of those, then you lost me on the last one, NO POINT FOR YOU! :lucythrill:

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I feel Lucy in the Hospital started out great but the ending Voodoo number with Ricky was stupid and unnecessary. I think no music like that should be in a sentimental eposide. I find that season one of here's Lucy is on par with The Lucy Show season 4. Both have some bad shows but both also have great classic eposides. Overall Here's Lucy 1 is slightly better. I like the move to the country on I Love Lucy Season 6 and feel it was a great change of pace and most of I Love Lucy Season 1 was great. I do feel Mary jane was underused but she did have her moments and seem content with her position on the show. Lucie did not become her best till later in Here's Lucy but she did her best learning as she was going. The writers too learned about her talents and used the whole ensemble more in Season 5 and 6 which made some great, realistic shows that were classic.

Geez, i feel like i've heard all this before, is this what they call that DEJA VU? :lucythrill:

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Okay, here's something really controversial:

 

I personally feel that all the travel the Ricardo's did in the later years was overdone. I mean, The Golden Girls spent 7 years in that house and rarely left it for more than one episode at a time. Were the writers really that pressed to think of more NYC storylines? Were they really that bored after just a few short years? I mean, the Ricardos barely had one season in their bigger apartment before they were flitting off all across the globe. Then Lucy wanted the characters to move to the country because she was sick of that apartment set? They barely spent any time filming on it after season 3!

 

It was handled very well, to be sure, and Hollywood and Europe did spawn some enjoyable episodes (though I find most overrated), but especially by the Europe trip it seemed they were trying a bit too hard to me. Had it stuck around until the moon landing they probably would've had the Ricardos and the Mertzes traveling the galaxy by the end of the series and setting up interplanetary colonies. If they were that fickle about globetrotting who knows what would've happened!

 

Not to mention Lucy's furniture changes! Fidelman was right in The Lucy Book that Lucy Ricardo had more new couches in 6 years than most people have in a lifetime. I love the show, but wish it had been more consistent at times and didn't constantly feel pressure to shake things up so much. Same thing with the hour-long shows. I think the show had gotten way too ambitious by that point...so far removed from its humble origins. And let's face it, episodes filled with new sets, guest stars and crappy stock footage just don't add up to great comedy in a tiny little apartment. That's where the real magic happened.

 

I'll probably get lynched for this, but do keep in mind I STILL love the show and a number of those later episodes. I just wonder if all of it was really necessary to keep it going.

Ok, but be fair, could you write 180 episodes and never repeat anything or go into the same territory? Could you come up with even more ESCAPADES when writing 35 shows in as many weeks?

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I wasn't trying to compare Vivian to Mary Jane. No one could be Vivian and she shouldn't have to be. But the character of Mary Jane, plot device or confidant or what have you, never gave me many laughs or felt very interesting. I am not knocking the actress, I'm knocking the character. Even if Vivian never existed, I would not like the character. (Though I am looking forward to her work in Season Six of HERE'S LUCY, which I have yet to see.) It comes down to a sense of character continuity more than anything else.

 

And, I agree LotusBud. I liked the travel episodes, in general, but I too felt that the European Tour and Florida Vacation were (well-done) attempts to find new stories because the writers were struggling in the apartment. Similarly, though the script construction remained sharp, I think the stories in the apartment episodes of Season Six are considerably weaker than anything written since Season One. But, as I said, I loved pretty much everything about the Country episodes. My only complaint would be that the plot of Lucy wanting to be in show business was dropped, and that we never got see characters like Carolyn or Mrs. Trumbull again. But I thought the stories were fresher and reinvigorating.

 

And, another (I think) unpopular opinion: I like "Ricky Sells The Car." Not a classic, but funny nonetheless.

Again, the KEY here, is that the writers had to come up with an idea that would make the Queen of Comedy KEEP her title, not just something funny but something the whole world would be talking and writing about, not an easy task.

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I've always thought Mary Jane's voice (the character's) was super annoying. I liked the Audrey Simmons character better.

It wasn't annoying, it was more NAILS ON A CHALKBOARD. That actress made me laugh more watching Lucy feed her cheese baby on ILL than she ever did on the later shows, she was great but again the writers never made her a full 3 dimensional character, same as they hadn't done for Gale. :maryjane2::gale2:

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It wasn't annoying, it was more NAILS ON A CHALKBOARD. That actress made me laugh more watching Lucy feed her cheese baby on ILL than she ever did on the later shows, she was great but again the writers never made her a full 3 dimensional character, same as they hadn't done for Gale. :maryjane2::gale2:

 

Well said Claude - I just +1'd your comment but have to say that "never made her a full 3 dimensional character, same as they hadn't done for Gale" pretty much sums it up perfectly! I think all characters, (even Kim and Craig) were never made 3 dimensional (except Fred & Ethel)

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I love all the Tennessee Ernie Ford episodes. Lucy must have loved him too or else she would have never worked with him so much.

 

I can't stand it when William Frawley sings or "performs" as an entertainer. That vaudeville schtick belongs in the 19th century not on tv.

 

I think Desi Arnaz Jr is dramatically better on Here's Lucy than Lucie Arnaz is, and especially much more natural in his performance. Sometimes Little Lucie is so bad with her dinner-theatre delivery I have to fight the urge to turn the dvd off!

 

It's tiresome when Lucy Carmichael/Carter is wowed by every "B" list star she meets.

I do too, there was only one dud in the Ernie Ford appearances, the last one with that Funny farm or whatever it was. Bill had appeared in 100 movies, sang great, but you're right, his SHTICK as you call it belonged in vaudeville, not on a classic sitcom, it dates the show terribly. I'll skip the next one not to offend anyone. And finally, Lucy reacted to those stars in that way because back then they were much bigger stars, now some of them are totally unknown to the general public.

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It wasn't annoying, it was more NAILS ON A CHALKBOARD. That actress made me laugh more watching Lucy feed her cheese baby on ILL than she ever did on the later shows, she was great but again the writers never made her a full 3 dimensional character, same as they hadn't done for Gale. :maryjane2::gale2:

 

Disagree. When Bob and Madelyn came back on board, suddenly the Harry character became far more three dimensional and became moreso as the series progressed. The same followed, but to a much lesser extent, with Mary Jane.

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Disagree. When Bob and Madelyn came back on board, suddenly the Harry character became far more three dimensional and became moreso as the series progressed. The same followed, but to a much lesser extent, with Mary Jane.

Oh i agree that Harry became much more palatable later on but it sure was a long time coming, would have helped a lot if it had been from the beginning.

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I do too, there was only one dud in the Ernie Ford appearances, the last one with that Funny farm or whatever it was. Bill had appeared in 100 movies, sang great, but you're right, his SHTICK as you call it belonged in vaudeville, not on a classic sitcom, it dates the show terribly. I'll skip the next one not to offend anyone. And finally, Lucy reacted to those stars in that way because back then they were much bigger stars, now some of them are totally unknown to the general public.

Oh I agree Bill does not sing awful it's just his style used on the show is so corny, he always seems like he stepped out of a barbershop quartet. I saw in him a few years ago in a 1930s Irene Dunne musical HIGH WIDE AND HANDSOME and was stunned how good he was singing in a "contemporary" (for it's era) style like the rest of the cast.

 

I don't mean the superstars Lucy met like the movie legends on I LOVE LUCY who might not be so famous today with the general public but the frequently "B list" of celebrities who appeared on the 60s and 70s shows as themselves who weren't all that big even at the time and yet Lucy seems as impressed as if she's meeting Clark Gable or Mae West.

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Always really liked Mary Jane, think she was underrated, especially by the teleplay writers. The whiny voice was closer to lightly amusing than annoying to me but I can see where it would rub some people the wrong way. I think it must be at least partially an affectation as I've heard Mary Jane in several radio shows from the 1940's and the whine edge is not there, maybe her voice changed with time like Lucy's did.

 

Re Gale, I was so used to the screaming Gale of the Lucy's boss years with tv reruns and pd dvds it was something of a shock to see him as a mellower Mr. Mooney in the early seasons of TLS when he generally has a calmer reactions to Lucy. I definitely think turning up the volume on the character in the later seasons was a mistake but then this sort of exasperated screamer was then a staple on many sitcoms with Frank Sutton, Alan Hale, and to a lesser degree Dick York and Raymond Bailey, can't imagine why audiences back then enjoyed seeing the stars yelled at though.

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