Unsolved "Lucy" Mysteries

[JoeySanJoaquin]

Maybe he stayed with Mrs. Trumbull back in NYC so that no one would ever leave him alone again!!

[leenorman]

I must have been dreaming; but, I distinctly remember him running down those stairs!!!!!  ANYONE????

[Neil]

Though the Ann Sothern Countess episodes spanned 2 seasons, they were all aired in the calendar year 1965.  Rosie's 7 appearances were a little less than 1/3rd of the entire 1965 Lucy Show output!

Remember that Ann had been a much bigger movie star than Lucy and had had TWO hit series already.  There may have been a bit of star-ego clashing, though I've never heard of it. And of course it doesn't show on-screen.   They work so well together, but signing on on Lucy's permanent sidekick might have tarnished her star status.   It was "The LUCY Show", after all.  

In 1965 she may have had legitimate hopes of returning to TV in something like "The New Ann Sothern Show"....1965-66's My Mother the Car was just a paycheck and, not being on-screen, it didn't hurt her career.   It's been written than she was the original choice to star with Eve Arden in The Mothers In Law but I don't know how far those negotiations got. 

Ann continued to do TV guest shots.  I just saw a "Love American Style" from 1970 and she's wonderful: with less than wonderful material.  She still had the face but was putting on weight, but not THAT much.  

As the 60s waned, she was certainly less of a draw than she used to be.   She returned to the stage in the 70s.  Her last appearance on a TV comedy was in 1971, the decidedly low-rent "Chicago Teddy Bears" (what was CBS thinking with this one, "The Queen and I" and "Me and the Chimp"---while still passing on "Maggie Brown"??)

Viewing Private Secretary and The Ann Sothern Show today, as with many other 50s "hits", it becomes more apparent that I Love Lucy was in a class by itself.  Ann had to work perhaps even harder than Lucy because her scripts were so laughless.  Ann's series success was a matter of charm triumphing over material.  The combined 200 episodes enjoyed a very healthy syndication life before b/w series were phased out (except for ONE, of course). 

Still it would have been great to have her come back each season for 3 or 4 episodes, segueing into Here's Lucy (If Mary Jane could do it, why not Rosy Harrigan?)  

Strange the Ann/Countess appearances ended so abruptly.  

I know some sources have claimed that Ann Sothern, were she to become a series regular, wanted to be billed alongside Lucy. Reportedly, the co-star credit Vivian received wasn't good enough. I take this with a grain of salt but maybe Ann did have some qualms about what a supporting role would entail. If that is the case, it's unfortunate they couldn't have kept her on in a recurring basis.

Another explanation is that the creative team was perhaps leery about having her around every week. I remember Maury Thompson or someone saying that "you had to pamper Ann to get a good show out of her." Maybe that pampering was just too much to worry about for a regular cast member?

[JoeySanJoaquin]

I must have been dreaming; but, I distinctly remember him running down those stairs!!!!!  ANYONE????

Yes, I believe it was in Ragtime Band when the "band" was practicing last time I remember him "appearing"....however the question/comment was about whether or not he was in any of the hour-long shows and I don't recall him shown in any of them but then there are a couple I haven't seen in eons (e.g. Mexico, Berle) as I find them more painful than entertaining and perhaps he was but don't go by me... reminds me too that the Ramseys were referred to as neighbors at least once (Tallulah) but were not shown.

[Freddie2]

I'm pretty sure Ann filmed a pilot for Mothers In Law but it was decided she and Eve were too similar so Kaye was brought in (thank goodness).

 

Let's not forget her Oscar nomination- out of all of the main cast of Whales of August, whodathunk that the academy would choose Ann? I'm happy for her of course, and it's a great way to end a film career, but still. Bette should have gotten something for that movie.

[Mot Morenzi]

I'm pretty sure Ann filmed a pilot for Mothers In Law but it was decided she and Eve were too similar so Kaye was brought in (thank goodness).

Let's not forget her Oscar nomination- out of all of the main cast of Whales of August, whodathunk that the academy would choose Ann? I'm happy for her of course, and it's a great way to end a film career, but still. Bette should have gotten something for that movie.

I don't think Ann ever shot anything for The Mothers-in-Law. I believe it was decided before production began that she was too similar in style to Eve, so they brought in Kaye.

 

The only casting change made after the pilot was filmed was the role of the daughter, played by Kaye Cole. Just the scenes featuring Suzie were reshot with Deborah Walley. In fact, you can still catch glimpses of Kaye Cole in the on-air first episode, most noticeably the final shot before the fade out where Eve hugs her. I guess it would've been too expensive to redo the entire final scene, what with the water effects and all.

[HarryCarter]

Though the Ann Sothern Countess episodes spanned 2 seasons, they were all aired in the calendar year 1965.  Rosie's 7 appearances were a little less than 1/3rd of the entire 1965 Lucy Show output!

Remember that Ann had been a much bigger movie star than Lucy and had had TWO hit series already.  There may have been a bit of star-ego clashing, though I've never heard of it. And of course it doesn't show on-screen.   They work so well together, but signing on on Lucy's permanent sidekick might have tarnished her star status.   It was "The LUCY Show", after all.  

In 1965 she may have had legitimate hopes of returning to TV in something like "The New Ann Sothern Show"....1965-66's My Mother the Car was just a paycheck and, not being on-screen, it didn't hurt her career.   It's been written than she was the original choice to star with Eve Arden in The Mothers In Law but I don't know how far those negotiations got. 

Ann continued to do TV guest shots.  I just saw a "Love American Style" from 1970 and she's wonderful: with less than wonderful material.  She still had the face but was putting on weight, but not THAT much.  

As the 60s waned, she was certainly less of a draw than she used to be.   She returned to the stage in the 70s.  Her last appearance on a TV comedy was in 1971, the decidedly low-rent "Chicago Teddy Bears" (what was CBS thinking with this one, "The Queen and I" and "Me and the Chimp"---while still passing on "Maggie Brown"??)

Viewing Private Secretary and The Ann Sothern Show today, as with many other 50s "hits", it becomes more apparent that I Love Lucy was in a class by itself.  Ann had to work perhaps even harder than Lucy because her scripts were so laughless.  Ann's series success was a matter of charm triumphing over material.  The combined 200 episodes enjoyed a very healthy syndication life before b/w series were phased out (except for ONE, of course). 

Still it would have been great to have her come back each season for 3 or 4 episodes, segueing into Here's Lucy (If Mary Jane could do it, why not Rosy Harrigan?)  

Strange the Ann/Countess appearances ended so abruptly.  

 

 

When it was first announced that Lucy was going to return to TV in 1962 in a TV adaption of "Life Without George," it was announced that Ann Sothern would likely be her costar. Presumably she was a backup if they couldn't get Vivian to do the series. When The Lucy Show was starting, Ann did an NBC pilot for the 1963 season called "Attaboy Mama," which was not picked up. 

Ann was asked to do 20 episodes of the fourth season and her public excuse for turning down the offer was she wanted to continue her film career and not be tied down to a series. She did consider doing a show where she and three other women stars would rotate as the lead, but nothing came of this. I think Ann wanted control of her own series and wasn't able to get that anywhere.

[Neil]

I'm pretty sure Ann filmed a pilot for Mothers In Law but it was decided she and Eve were too similar so Kaye was brought in (thank goodness).

 

Let's not forget her Oscar nomination- out of all of the main cast of Whales of August, whodathunk that the academy would choose Ann? I'm happy for her of course, and it's a great way to end a film career, but still. Bette should have gotten something for that movie.

 

"The Whales of August" was an interesting coda to Ann's career.   She was more than willing to work more and with an Oscar nod under her considerable belt had realistic hopes that offers would come in, but it was the last thing she did, though she lived another 14 years.   She did an extensive People magazine interview in which she claimed she was 67, instead of the 77 she was.  "I'm the youngest of the four of us"  (Actually Vincent Price was.)  The author wrote, rather delicately without ACTUALLY disputing her ,that  if that was true, full-fledged adult Harriet Lake made her film debut in 1929 and was only 10 years old.  She asked the interviewer the loaded question "Do I LOOK like a 77 year old woman?".  It was more practicality than vanity, she wanted to make herself more employable.  The average age of the 4 principals in "Whales" was 81.  Insurance must have been a nightmare.  Ann still walked with a cane from her mid 70s stage accident.  Roles would have been few, but after an Oscar nod, you'd think it would have led to SOMETHING else.  

Whether she deserved it or not, I'm glad she got a nomination.  It must have been a thrill.  She's certainly good in the movie, but has no stand-out scene worthy of an Oscar.   She lost but showed up at the awards on the arm of a youngish "escort".  Way to go, Ann!

 

PS: "Life with Lucy" was the year before "Whales".  When it was cancelled, Lucy cried to Ann "I've been FIRED".  It must have been hard for Ann to drum up much sympathy.   While Lucy was still riding high in the 70s, Ann was reduced to small roles in Grade-Z movies and though the show failed, Lucy was being given a 22 episode guarantee with no pilot!  (ABC paid the bottom line costs for the remaining 9 unfilmed shows.  LBP did all the post-production for the unaired episodes, though ABC had no intention of running them, even during the following summer as it did with "Ellen Burstyn". )  No one was considering a "Life with Ann" series.   Ann triumphed in a Hawaiian "Mame" production in 1969.  Warners cast Lucy in 1971. I wonder if in the deep recesses of her mind Ann had a scintilla of hope that she might be offered the movie.  In the same year as "Mame", Ann played "Fenzie" in "Golden Needles".   There were probably a lot of age-appropriate leading ladies, fully equipped and prepared, that resented Lucy's casting.  If Bette Davis thought she had a chance, well, anything's possible!

[Neil]

When it was first announced that Lucy was going to return to TV in 1962, it was announced that Ann Sothern would likely be her costar. 

and

Ann was asked to do 20 episodes of the fourth season 

I've learned from crow-eating humbling experience never to doubt any Harry Carter info, but.......huh????   Ann Bagley??

 

And please elaborate on your sources for this and the offer of 20 4th season episodes (of which there were only 26!)  I guess my idea of teaming stuntmen Ironman Carmichael and Muscles Framboise wasn't so far-fetched after all! 

 

"she wanted to continue her film career and not be tied down to a series.'  She wanted to keep her schedule free for "Chubasco"??

 

Maybe they were going to combine "The Lucy Show' with the premise of Ann's other 1965 series and call it "My Co-Star, the Car"

 

"Everyone knows that sitcoms stars make comebacks sooner or later

Everything from an stone age clown* to a Lucy masquerader **..."

 

*Imogene Coca

** Eve in the Mothers In Law

[HarryCarter]

I've learned from crow-eating humbling experience never to doubt any Harry Carter info, but.......huh????   Ann Bagley??

 

And please elaborate on your sources for this and the offer of 20 4th season episodes (of which there were only 26!)  I guess my idea of teaming stuntmen Ironman Carmichael and Muscles Framboise wasn't so far-fetched after all! 

 

"she wanted to continue her film career and not be tied down to a series.'  She wanted to keep her schedule free for "Chubasco"??

 

Maybe they were going to combine "The Lucy Show' with the premise of Ann's other 1965 series and call it "My Co-Star, the Car"

 

"Everyone knows that sitcoms stars make comebacks sooner or later

Everything from an stone age clown* to a Lucy masquerader **..."

 

*Imogene Coca

** Eve in the Mothers In Law

 

 

Ann as Lucy's costar on the new series was from a February 12, 1962 Hedda Hopper column. The column was phrased that they would be equal costars on the show. The first public mention that Viv might join Lucy was March 5. 

 

In an AP interview from February 1965 during the middle of her Countess run, Ann was asked if she would be joining the series upon Vivian's retirement. Ann said that Lucy hadn't even made up her mind to do another season, but she had been asked to do 20 episodes if they did. She said she didn't want to overcommit herself. In this same interview, she mentions wanting to be the rotating star of a series with other women. 

[HarryCarter]

"The Whales of August" was an interesting coda to Ann's career.   She was more than willing to work more and with an Oscar nod under her considerable belt had realistic hopes that offers would come in, but it was the last thing she did, though she lived another 14 years.   She did an extensive People magazine interview in which she claimed she was 67, instead of the 77 she was.  "I'm the youngest of the four of us"  (Actually Vincent Price was.)  The author wrote, rather delicately without ACTUALLY disputing her ,that  if that was true, full-fledged adult Harriet Lake made her film debut in 1929 and was only 10 years old.  She asked the interviewer the loaded question "Do I LOOK like a 77 year old woman?".  It was more practicality than vanity, she wanted to make herself more employable.  The average age of the 4 principals in "Whales" was 81.  Insurance must have been a nightmare.  Ann still walked with a cane from her mid 70s stage accident.  Roles would have been few, but after an Oscar nod, you'd think it would have led to SOMETHING else.  

Whether she deserved it or not, I'm glad she got a nomination.  It must have been a thrill.  She's certainly good in the movie, but has no stand-out scene worthy of an Oscar.   She lost but showed up at the awards on the arm of a youngish "escort".  Way to go, Ann!

 

PS: "Life with Lucy" was the year before "Whales".  When it was cancelled, Lucy cried to Ann "I've been FIRED".  It must have been hard for Ann to drum up much sympathy.   While Lucy was still riding high in the 70s, Ann was reduced to small roles in Grade-Z movies and though the show failed, Lucy was being given a 22 episode guarantee with no pilot!  (ABC paid the bottom line costs for the remaining 9 unfilmed shows.  LBP did all the post-production for the unaired episodes, though ABC had no intention of running them, even during the following summer as it did with "Ellen Burstyn". )  No one was considering a "Life with Ann" series.   Ann triumphed in a Hawaiian "Mame" production in 1969.  Warners cast Lucy in 1971. I wonder if in the deep recesses of her mind Ann had a scintilla of hope that she might be offered the movie.  In the same year as "Mame", Ann played "Fenzie" in "Golden Needles".   There were probably a lot of age-appropriate leading ladies, fully equipped and prepared, that resented Lucy's casting.  If Bette Davis thought she had a chance, well, anything's possible!

 

Ann wanted that Oscar.

 

 

I wonder if Ann received offers for film roles after her Oscar nomination. She campaigned hard for the Driving Miss Daisy film. She wanted Richard Pryor to star opposite her. Imagine that teaming! 

 

I'm sure Ann thought she was going to have more of film career in 1965 than she ended up having. She had her buzzed about role in Lady in a Cage and got a Golden Globe nomination for The Best Man. But she all she had after were playing hookers, tramps, and madams. Later in 1965, she was announced to be in negotiations as the original star of Mame in Broadway, but that didn't happen for whatever reason. 

[Mot Morenzi]

I've learned from crow-eating humbling experience never to doubt any Harry Carter info, but.......huh????   Ann Bagley??

 

And please elaborate on your sources for this and the offer of 20 4th season episodes (of which there were only 26!)  I guess my idea of teaming stuntmen Ironman Carmichael and Muscles Framboise wasn't so far-fetched after all! 

 

"she wanted to continue her film career and not be tied down to a series.'  She wanted to keep her schedule free for "Chubasco"??

 

Maybe they were going to combine "The Lucy Show' with the premise of Ann's other 1965 series and call it "My Co-Star, the Car"

 

"Everyone knows that sitcoms stars make comebacks sooner or later

Everything from an stone age clown* to a Lucy masquerader **..."

 

*Imogene Coca

** Eve in the Mothers In Law

Muscles Framboise, LOL!

 

I agree with others here who've stated that the Countess as a full-time character probably wouldn't have worked; the character didn't lend itself to appearing on a regular basis. 20 episodes of one season probably would've been too much. However, it's a crying shame she didn't recur throughout seasons 5 and 6. It would've broken up the monotony of revolving guest stars to have more familiar faces pop in from time to time.

[Mot Morenzi]

Ann wanted that Oscar.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RODaRVzIBtE

 

I wonder if Ann received offers for film roles after her Oscar nomination. She campaigned hard for the Driving Miss Daisy film. She wanted Richard Pryor to star opposite her. Imagine that teaming!

 

I'm sure Ann thought she was going to have more of film career in 1965 than she ended up having. She had her buzzed about role in Lady in a Cage and got a Golden Globe nomination for The Best Man. But she all she had after were playing hookers, tramps, and madams. Later in 1965, she was announced to be in negotiations as the original star of Mame in Broadway, but that didn't happen for whatever reason.

 

Hookers, Tramps and Madams...I sense a Cher parody in the works there

[Neil]

I'm not aware of Ann receiving ANY movie offers after "Whales".

When Ann finally got her chance to do "Mame" for an extended run in Honolulu in 1969, I'll wager the "we think you're just sensational" high kick choreography was modified a bit.  Ann's reviews were all positive, some raves.  Somewhere in daughter Tish's closet, there exists an audio recording of Ann's Mame. 

There was a lot of speculation about the casting of Mame on Broadway.  Supposedly it was offered to the default leading ladies: Merman and Mary Martin.  Lawrence and Lee interviewed before the Hollywood movie premiere said "We wanted Lucy for the original production".  But how far did negotiations get?  After Wildcat, it's doubtful Lucy would have signed up for anything beyond a limited run.   And 1966 was such a busy year for Lucy: besides her own series, she was still the president of Desilu, and of course had those two teenagers at home.  

Still the 1966 Lucy would have been splendid as Mame.  What a difference 8 years made (and I AM a "Mame" movie fan). 

Every actress of "a certain age" who was still ambulatory was considered for Broadway's Mame.  Ann's name was on the list but I didn't think she was ever that high up.  (Maybe if they had musicalized "Lady in a Cage", she could have reprised her movie role---with her 11:00 number "Open this damn closet; Unlock the damn door; I work the old highway; As Sadie, the two-bit whore...")

Pre-Mame, I don't know if the name "Angela Lansbury" meant much to anyone outside the theater.  She had recent movies to her credit but none contained any Mame-like glamor.  (playing Elvis Presley's MOTHER???).  Other than the very short run of "Anyone Can Whistle", Angela was not known for singing.  In fact, in her MGM musicals of the 40s, she's dubbed!

Unlike the post-Channing Dolly's on Broadway, the Mame replacements were rather lackluster by comparison, until Ann Miller took the role late in the run.   "Mame" and "Hello Dolly" closed on Broadway about the same time.  For the brief period "Dear World" was being presented, Jerry Herman had THREE musicals playing simultaneously.   It was his last high-water mark until "La Cage" some 15 years later.

 

 

Ann wanted that Oscar.

 

 

 

I wonder if Ann received offers for film roles after her Oscar nomination. She campaigned hard for the Driving Miss Daisy film. She wanted Richard Pryor to star opposite her. Imagine that teaming! 

 

I'm sure Ann thought she was going to have more of film career in 1965 than she ended up having. She had her buzzed about role in Lady in a Cage and got a Golden Globe nomination for The Best Man. But she all she had after were playing hookers, tramps, and madams. Later in 1965, she was announced to be in negotiations as the original star of Mame in Broadway, but that didn't happen for whatever reason. 

[HarryCarter]

I wish the audio of Ann doing Mame was available. I bet she was sensational. I would also love to hear her starring in Gypsy. She was supposedly one of the most Roses ever.

Everyone from Katharine Hepburn to Phyllis Diller was under consideration for Mame. The score was written with Mary Martin in mind. Ann was reportedly in negotiations and lost 20 pounds to play the part. For whatever reason she didn't do the part. The final three were Angela, Dolores Gray, and Kaye Ballard. A lot of casting possibilities played the role in stock, but second fiddles Kaye and Dolores never did. Angela Lansbury's final pre-Mame movie role was very much a 1960s Ann Sothern film role. She played a minor role as a tramp in Mr. Buddwing with James Garner.

[Neil]

As much as I love Kaye, and how marvelous her singing voice is, I can't see her as Mame.  Too bad she didn't do a full-blown full-orchestra studio recording of the score.  (Ditto Garland of Mame and Gypsy).  Dolores Gray, one of those underutilized belters from the post-Merman generation: yes.  Were I in charge of 1966 casting given the choice of Gray or Angela, I might have gone with Dolores just because of her Broadway track record.  She would have been a great replacement Mame.  For the record, the post-Lansbury Mame's were, not necessarily in order,  Celeste Holm with her slight singing voice, Janis "Pajama Game" Paige, Ann Miller and one I don't know Jane Morgan (unless this is the same actress who played Mrs. Davis on "Our Miss Brooks"---now THERE's stunt casting). 

 

"Everyone from Phyllis Diller to Katharine Hepburn..."  that's quite a range but both did Broadway musicals simultaneous to Mame.  Phyllis by all accounts was a good Dolly, subjugating her comic persona, conveying a depth and understanding of the part..and with a pleasing singing voice.  But come on!  Wouldn't you have been disappointed if the evening went by with not one "ah-HAAA!" laugh inserted?  It's hard to imagine Kate conquering the Mame score "Open a new window, open a new doe-ahhh".  Though I love Coco (and am one of the few), her singing voice sounds only slightly less duckish than Donald. 

 

Ann has no credits between 1965 (pre-Mame) and 1967(after it had run a year), so it's odd that she wasted that Ann Sothern-"lite" (by 20 pounds) year.  I haven't seen any of her 1967 credits, the movie "Chubasco" and TV guest spots on "Girl from Uncle" and "The Outsider" (a western?).  Does anyone know if she retained her "thin" figure for those roles?  Her one 1966 credit is as the voice of My Mother, the Car, a waste of her smaller sized rumble-seat. 

 

I know Ann Sothern's 2nd cousin and she claims all the woman in the family have the same body type: short, "ample-bosomed" and a full face (chipmunk cheeks) which this relative certainly had.  All of which conspire to make them seem plumper than they are.  By middle age, their bulge-battle gives way to becoming pear shaped.   There's only so much one can do to prevent nature from taking its course. 

It's really unfair that Ann's name is rarely mentioned without some reference to her 60s weight gain, because she just wasn't THAT fat; and even if she was, it wouldn't be an issue if she was a male actor.  Her weight was probably BELOW average for women her age in the 60s.  She turned 60 in January of 1969 and later that year triumphed in Honolulu's Mame. 

I wish the audio of Ann doing Mame was available. I bet she was sensational. I would also love to hear her starring in Gypsy. She was supposedly one of the most Roses ever.
Everyone from Katharine Hepburn to Phyllis Diller was under consideration for Mame. The score was written with Mary Martin in mind. Ann was reportedly in negotiations and lost 20 pounds to play the part. For whatever reason she didn't do the part. The final three were Angela, Dolores Gray, and Kaye Ballard. A lot of casting possibilities played the role in stock, but second fiddles Kaye and Dolores never did. Angela Lansbury's final pre-Mame movie role was very much a 1960s Ann Sothern film role. She played a minor role as a tramp in Mr. Buddwing with James Garner.

[HarryCarter]

 

Ann has no credits between 1965 (pre-Mame) and 1967(after it had run a year), so it's odd that she wasted that Ann Sothern-"lite" (by 20 pounds) year.  I haven't seen any of her 1967 credits, the movie "Chubasco" and TV guest spots on "Girl from Uncle" and "The Outsider" (a western?).  Does anyone know if she retained her "thin" figure for those roles?  Her one 1966 credit is as the voice of My Mother, the Car, a waste of her smaller sized rumble-seat. 

 

I know Ann Sothern's 2nd cousin and she claims all the woman in the family have the same body type: short, "ample-bosomed" and a full face (chipmunk cheeks) which this relative certainly had.  All of which conspire to make them seem plumper than they are.  By middle age, their bulge-battle gives way to becoming pear shaped.   There's only so much one can do to prevent nature from taking its course. 

It's really unfair that Ann's name is rarely mentioned without some reference to her 60s weight gain, because she just wasn't THAT fat; and even if she was, it wouldn't be an issue if she was a male actor.  Her weight was probably BELOW average for women her age in the 60s.  She turned 60 in January of 1969 and later that year triumphed in Honolulu's Mame. 

 

 

I have seen Chubasco and Ann is Countess-sized in her role as a glamorous madam. In 1966, Ann did a tour of The Glass Menagerie and the following year was her acclaimed turn in Gypsy. 

 

Ann's weight gain started in 1950 when she was diagnosed with hepatitis after she was given a tainted vaccination. That derailed her film career as well. She was bedridden for several years. I believe she was able to record The Adventures of Maisie on radio from her bed during this time. She made one more film, The Blue Gardenia in 1953, and then started Private Secretary. She didn't make another film until Lady in a Cage a decade later. 

[Neil]

Is this a new "royalty" size term?  Like King-size and Queen-sized?

I have seen Chubasco and Ann is Countess-sized .

In 1966, Ann did a tour of The Glass Menagerie

When Ann was in Portland in the 80s, during one of her interviews she mentioned "Menagerie" and that she won some local award for her performance.  I'll bet she was great in it.....and "Gypsy"......We have to get ahold of these audio recordings before the acetate turns to dust in Tish's Ketchum Idaho attic. 

 

I wonder if there wasn't some professional "yellos-y" of Lucy by not only Ann but some of her contemporaries, because other than Hepburn I can't think of another actress who was 'in demand' so late in her career.   While Lucy's still winning Emmys, starring in a hit movie YMO, Ann's simultaneous offer was "Chubasco" (the title alone screams "B-movie". Was it any good?),   Lucy is offered the plum role of Mame, while Ann gets the decidedly low-budget "Killing Kind", which doesn't even get released.. It's non-release had to do with someone's bankruptcy.  Ann delivers what is probably her greatest film performance, Oscar nomination-worthy had the film not been so low-rent and grizzly.  Mame-wannabe Bette Davis can't get a TV pilot picked up and toils in such TV-movie classics as "Scream Peggy Scream" the year of Mame's release. 

Even Eve Arden who had a brief career renaissance with Mothers IN Law spent the 70s grabbing whatever small roles came her way.  (Though I point out that Eve seemed much less career-oriented than most,  concentrating more on her family life and travels).

Just a thought.

[HarryCarter]

Ann's simultaneous offer was "Chubasco" (the title alone screams "B-movie". Was it any good?),

 

No. However, it's Citizen Kane compared to Ann's other movie with Susan Strasberg.

 

In interviews in the late '60s and '70s, Ann says that television doesn't want strong, independent women with the exception of Lucy. She clearly meant this with love and respect and was happy that Lucy was able to continue so long, but I bet she wished she was in that position.

[JoeySanJoaquin]

"The Whales of August" was an interesting coda to Ann's career.   She was more than willing to work more and with an Oscar nod under her considerable belt had realistic hopes that offers would come in, but it was the last thing she did, though she lived another 14 years.   She did an extensive People magazine interview in which she claimed she was 67, instead of the 77 she was.  "I'm the youngest of the four of us"  (Actually Vincent Price was.)  The author wrote, rather delicately without ACTUALLY disputing her ,that  if that was true, full-fledged adult Harriet Lake made her film debut in 1929 and was only 10 years old.  She asked the interviewer the loaded question "Do I LOOK like a 77 year old woman?".  It was more practicality than vanity, she wanted to make herself more employable.  The average age of the 4 principals in "Whales" was 81.  Insurance must have been a nightmare.  Ann still walked with a cane from her mid 70s stage accident.  Roles would have been few, but after an Oscar nod, you'd think it would have led to SOMETHING else.  

Whether she deserved it or not, I'm glad she got a nomination.  It must have been a thrill.  She's certainly good in the movie, but has no stand-out scene worthy of an Oscar.   She lost but showed up at the awards on the arm of a youngish "escort".  Way to go, Ann!

 

PS: "Life with Lucy" was the year before "Whales".  When it was cancelled, Lucy cried to Ann "I've been FIRED".  It must have been hard for Ann to drum up much sympathy.   While Lucy was still riding high in the 70s, Ann was reduced to small roles in Grade-Z movies and though the show failed, Lucy was being given a 22 episode guarantee with no pilot!  (ABC paid the bottom line costs for the remaining 9 unfilmed shows.  LBP did all the post-production for the unaired episodes, though ABC had no intention of running them, even during the following summer as it did with "Ellen Burstyn". )  No one was considering a "Life with Ann" series.   Ann triumphed in a Hawaiian "Mame" production in 1969.  Warners cast Lucy in 1971. I wonder if in the deep recesses of her mind Ann had a scintilla of hope that she might be offered the movie.  In the same year as "Mame", Ann played "Fenzie" in "Golden Needles".   There were probably a lot of age-appropriate leading ladies, fully equipped and prepared, that resented Lucy's casting.  If Bette Davis thought she had a chance, well, anything's possible!

This makes me wonder why Ann never guested on HL considering their years-long friendship and association, unless perhaps they went through a rough patch or something, if not a downright falling out? Inquiring minds... 

[JoeySanJoaquin]

Is this a new "royalty" size term?  Like King-size and Queen-sized?

When Ann was in Portland in the 80s, during one of her interviews she mentioned "Menagerie" and that she won some local award for her performance.  I'll bet she was great in it.....and "Gypsy"......We have to get ahold of these audio recordings before the acetate turns to dust in Tish's Ketchum Idaho attic. 

 

I wonder if there wasn't some professional "yellos-y" of Lucy by not only Ann but some of her contemporaries, because other than Hepburn I can't think of another actress who was 'in demand' so late in her career.   While Lucy's still winning Emmys, starring in a hit movie YMO, Ann's simultaneous offer was "Chubasco" (the title alone screams "B-movie". Was it any good?),   Lucy is offered the plum role of Mame, while Ann gets the decidedly low-budget "Killing Kind", which doesn't even get released.. It's non-release had to do with someone's bankruptcy.  Ann delivers what is probably her greatest film performance, Oscar nomination-worthy had the film not been so low-rent and grizzly.  Mame-wannabe Bette Davis can't get a TV pilot picked up and toils in such TV-movie classics as "Scream Peggy Scream" the year of Mame's release. 

Even Eve Arden who had a brief career renaissance with Mothers IN Law spent the 70s grabbing whatever small roles came her way.  (Though I point out that Eve seemed much less career-oriented than most,  concentrating more on her family life and travels).

Just a thought.

Okay..... but what about "Hotel"? Bette Davis did the pilot for that -- and if memory serves, was to stay as the owner if it went to series, which it did but she didn't remain (in an oh-so-ironic twist, whether by design or coincidence, was replaced by Anne Baxter (one of my first (if not THE first) "celebrity encounters"!!) which I don't recall was by choice or health reasons or the ever-popular "creative differences" often cited. 

 

She also appeared in a few highly-rated (if not reviewed) TV movies, a genre not quite as popular in the 80s but still utilized when the project was right, co-starring in several with some stellar casts; including "Watcher in the Woods", "Little Gloria Happy at Last", "A Piano for Mrs. Cimino" and "Family Reunion." 

 

Not sure where in this timeline her big stroke occurred -- was that about the time of "Hotel" and is why she had to leave? -- and I haven't seen "Whales" in so long I don't remember if she'd already had it then or not but she certainly had by the time of her last film, the ill-begotten "Wicked Stepmother" though I've never seen it, judging by the film's promotion art, because she appeared to be a shadow of her former self.

 

I also remember how at this point she'd appear on all the talk shows wearing -- along with a very obvious wig -- little hats that seemed to emphasize her recent malady, sadly.

 

Eve didn't do too badly either considering, scoring a featured role in what eventually became the most successful musical in film history, "Grease" and it's sequel, as well as periodically appearing on varied episodic TV series, everything from "Maude" and "Love Boat" to "Falcon Crest".

 

They may not have been in the spotlight like Lucy was given their respective ages and previous career parallels, but it seems to me they did okay. 

[Irene Kampen Tripp]

Joey.. (btw Bette did Whales after her stroke and played a blind lady to boot!)...

 

You've NEVAH seen Wicked Stepmother?? I really don't remember the plot and can't recall how it even ended but I do remember one

Bette Davis line delivery that really cracked me

up at the time. I forget who but some dame was bitching about Bette's cigarette smoking and Bette in her oh so Bette bitchy style said: Well.. I will try NEVAH to (pause) EXhale.

[Freddie2]

I think I saw Wicked Stepmother awhile ago. Bette was the second wife of Lionel Stander. The first wife, only seen in photographs, was very fittingly JC.

Watcher in The Woods was a Disney theatrical realease, not TV movie, and a pretty fun one at that. I'd reccomend it around Halloweentimes. As Bette claims in This N' That, she did get sick right after filming the pilot for Hotel, but did not opt to return because the series had very quickly become Aaron Spelling soapy 80s trash.

Also, Joey- let's hear that Anne Baxter encounter story!

[Brock]

Joey.. (btw Bette did Whales after her stroke and played a blind lady to boot!)...

 

You've NEVAH seen Wicked Stepmother?? I really don't remember the plot and can't recall how it even ended but I do remember one

Bette Davis line delivery that really cracked me

up at the time. I forget who but some dame was bitching about Bette's cigarette smoking and Bette in her oh so Bette bitchy style said: Well.. I will try NEVAH to (pause) EXhale.

 

 

After we caught Wicked Stepmother on TV one night, my brother and I went around for months imitating Bette Davis -- particularly one line:

 

"Saaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaam! You're missing your GAAAAAAAAAAAAME. Show."

[Neil]

I'm not saying they didn't work at all.  Bette did some highly regarded TV movie work, winning Emmy for "Strangers" (I think).  But I think Bette would have preferred movie work.  Bette did many TV pilots: the oddest pass was her 1965 sitcom "The Decorator" because the pilot episode is actually quite funny with side-kick Mary Wickes to boot.   I'm sure "Golden Needles" wasn't the movie Ann picked over dozen of other offers.  

But my point is that the others did not remain the attraction with star power that Lucy did.   Pre Life with Lucy, Lucy still had "A list" star clout.  She could have done anything she wanted.  There was even talk of her returning to Broadway in a musical version of "Pocketful of Miracles", recreating Bette's Apple Annie role.  (according to Lee's book).  I'm sure there were several actresses who would have jumped at the chance for the steady work of a TV series.  So powerful was Lucy still, that ABC gave her carte blanch, a firm 22 episode offer and did not require a pilot, all of which they lived to regret.  I'm sure we all know this but just in case: ABC paid the bottom line costs for the remaining 9 shows not shot.  Not sure what those costs entailed but it wasn't the same total as if LBP had actually delivered the full 22.  I think producers and series regulars got their full pay, but not the crew or writers of unwritten scripts, unless they were guaranteed a certain # of episodes. 

Okay..... but what about "Hotel"? Bette Davis did the pilot for that -- and if memory serves, was to stay as the owner if it went to series, which it did but she didn't remain (in an oh-so-ironic twist, whether by design or coincidence, was replaced by Anne Baxter (one of my first (if not THE first) "celebrity encounters"!!) which I don't recall was by choice or health reasons or the ever-popular "creative differences" often cited. 

 

She also appeared in a few highly-rated (if not reviewed) TV movies, a genre not quite as popular in the 80s but still utilized when the project was right, co-starring in several with some stellar casts; including "Watcher in the Woods", "Little Gloria Happy at Last", "A Piano for Mrs. Cimino" and "Family Reunion." 

 

Not sure where in this timeline her big stroke occurred -- was that about the time of "Hotel" and is why she had to leave? -- and I haven't seen "Whales" in so long I don't remember if she'd already had it then or not but she certainly had by the time of her last film, the ill-begotten "Wicked Stepmother" though I've never seen it, judging by the film's promotion art, because she appeared to be a shadow of her former self.

 

I also remember how at this point she'd appear on all the talk shows wearing -- along with a very obvious wig -- little hats that seemed to emphasize her recent malady, sadly.

 

Eve didn't do too badly either considering, scoring a featured role in what eventually became the most successful musical in film history, "Grease" and it's sequel, as well as periodically appearing on varied episodic TV series, everything from "Maude" and "Love Boat" to "Falcon Crest".

 

They may not have been in the spotlight like Lucy was given their respective ages and previous career parallels, but it seems to me they did okay.