Annaleigh Posted December 23, 2012 Report Share Posted December 23, 2012 Nice pic! When I saw it I thought how maybe all those Bill hates Viv and Viv hates Bill stories were blown out of proportion because they both look like they are sincerely having a good time, with Viv's arm on his shoulder, too. And then I read Claude's take on it: "Dunno when or where but they musta served lotsa booze to get those two so close together and smiling yet! " If only.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C L A U D E Posted December 23, 2012 Report Share Posted December 23, 2012 Nice pic! When I saw it I thought how maybe all those Bill hates Viv and Viv hates Bill stories were blown out of proportion because they both look like they are sincerely having a good time, with Viv's arm on his shoulder, too. And then I read Claude's take on it: "Dunno when or where but they musta served lotsa booze to get those two so close together and smiling yet! " But honey, many of those stories about their relationship came from them. He hated the fact that she thought he was too old for her on the show and never forgave her for refusing the spin off as she refused to work with him alone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leenorman Posted December 24, 2012 Report Share Posted December 24, 2012 If only.... It's lovely testament to each of them IF they disliked each other, they still made 'history' together!!!! I love that! Wish I could be that way; I dislike someone, they NEVER get back in my good graces; and that's just wrong; but, it's me!!!! Tried to change; can't. A definite minus in my personality.... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C L A U D E Posted December 24, 2012 Report Share Posted December 24, 2012 Nice pic! When I saw it I thought how maybe all those Bill hates Viv and Viv hates Bill stories were blown out of proportion because they both look like they are sincerely having a good time, with Viv's arm on his shoulder, too. And then I read Claude's take on it: "Dunno when or where but they musta served lotsa booze to get those two so close together and smiling yet! " There's no argument that they were both very professional, but i wish i had never heard those stories, i can never look at any scene between them and not think about what we now know about their feelings towards each other. Same for Betty and Bea on Golden Girls, it distracts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucyilove Posted December 25, 2012 Report Share Posted December 25, 2012 There's no argument that they were both very professional, but i wish i had never heard those stories, i can never look at any scene between them and not think about what we now know about their feelings towards each other. Same for Betty and Bea on Golden Girls, it distracts. The Betty/Bea fracus saddens me more because Betty is such a lovely person and really did nothing to warrant it and in fact went above and beyond IMO to repair it. I agree knowing how hostile Bea was in real life to her really colors thoses scenes now when she feigns affection although honestly it never rang true before since Bea's personality made it impossible to believe her in the "warm" scenes. Knowing Frawley was a real life grouch isn't so bad since he's basically that on the show if a friendlier one. He does a better job than Bea though diving into the character and not letting personal feelings sink through the performance (same for Vivian). And given Fred and Ethel's fairly combative relationship it isn't as harsh a contrast. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C L A U D E Posted December 25, 2012 Report Share Posted December 25, 2012 The Betty/Bea fracus saddens me more because Betty is such a lovely person and really did nothing to warrant it and in fact went above and beyond IMO to repair it. I agree knowing how hostile Bea was in real life to her really colors thoses scenes now when she feigns affection although honestly it never rang true before since Bea's personality made it impossible to believe her in the "warm" scenes. Knowing Frawley was a real life grouch isn't so bad since he's basically that on the show if a friendlier one. He does a better job than Bea though diving into the character and not letting personal feelings sink through the performance (same for Vivian). And given Fred and Ethel's fairly combative relationship it isn't as harsh a contrast. Perfect post, and i agree with absolutely everything you said. As i watched the anniversary one today, where the Mertzs throw them that party, the interaction between the two was so weird, normal but so unlike their normal behavior, you know, them talking about mundane things together. Back to that BeaBetty thing, i was never that fond of Maude, and indeed found her the least lovable golden girl, her plots were never that funny, but Betty was perfect in everything she ever did, even that dismal Hot in Cleveland. She is so genuinely lovable that like Lucy, you`d watch her read the phone book and probably laugh at all the funny names in there. Back to BillViv, Bill was the sitcom`s curmudgeon and every great sitcom had a cheap, ornery, pain in the a$$ character and he played it perfectly. When he went on to My Three Sons, that show was so blah that he was one of the reasons we followed him there and even in that very small role, he still made you care about the character. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikidiki Posted December 25, 2012 Report Share Posted December 25, 2012 Wow! I never knew Bea was such a bitch in real life! Thanks for the insight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C L A U D E Posted December 25, 2012 Report Share Posted December 25, 2012 Wow! I never knew Bea was such a bitch in real life! Thanks for the insight. I think she started her career later in life than usual Hollywood gals, but yes, at the end, she taught a course at NYU, beeatch 101. I mean, who the hell could ever be mean to lovable Betty White????? And for no reason yet! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucyilove Posted December 25, 2012 Report Share Posted December 25, 2012 Perfect post, and i agree with absolutely everything you said. As i watched the anniversary one today, where the Mertzs throw them that party, the interaction between the two was so weird, normal but so unlike their normal behavior, you know, them talking about mundane things together. Back to that BeaBetty thing, i was never that fond of Maude, and indeed found her the least lovable golden girl, her plots were never that funny, but Betty was perfect in everything she ever did, even that dismal Hot in Cleveland. She is so genuinely lovable that like Lucy, you`d watch her read the phone book and probably laugh at all the funny names in there. Back to BillViv, Bill was the sitcom`s curmudgeon and every great sitcom had a cheap, ornery, pain in the a$$ character and he played it perfectly. When he went on to My Three Sons, that show was so blah that he was one of the reasons we followed him there and even in that very small role, he still made you care about the character. Totally agree with you on every point. Bea Arthur was undeniably talented and she's a terrific comedienne when she's in her bitch mode but she was the least appealing GG in part because she usually didn't ring true in the "sweet Dorothy" moments. I think she was angry at Betty because she walked into GG thinking she was the show's undisputed star and it turned into an ensemble with Betty getting the lion's share of laurels and public love which Bea couldn't handle. Sad because she missed out on a GREAT friend as Lucy, Mary, and Carol could have told her. I've never seen Frawley on MY THREE SONS, it was always "Uncle Charley" when I was around but I can imagine he raised the bar for that show which was one of those shows everybody watched and few really loved. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C L A U D E Posted December 25, 2012 Report Share Posted December 25, 2012 Totally agree with you on every point. Bea Arthur was undeniably talented and she's a terrific comedienne when she's in her bitch mode but she was the least appealing GG in part because she usually didn't ring true in the "sweet Dorothy" moments. I think she was angry at Betty because she walked into GG thinking she was the show's undisputed star and it turned into an ensemble with Betty getting the lion's share of laurels and public love which Bea couldn't handle. Sad because she missed out on a GREAT friend as Lucy, Mary, and Carol could have told her. I've never seen Frawley on MY THREE SONS, it was always "Uncle Charley" when I was around but I can imagine he raised the bar for that show which was one of those shows everybody watched and few really loved. Yeah, neither of us is saying Bea wasn't talented and great in the role but the lovable character was definitely Rose and Betty played her perfectly. I've always said the loopy or dim character is ALWAYS the most beloved on a show, is it because we feel superior to them, i dunno, maybe it's the fact that they have better lines or play it better, that's all. You care more about them, Edith Bunker, Joey on Friends, Phoebe on the same show, they got a two for one on that show. Sometimes Lucy was clever shrewd, sometimes she was just a dim bulb but she was always lovable. Always wondered where they dug up Bill's replacement on My Three Sons, he was NOT lovable in any way. Bill hated him for taking his job, that he lost for health insurance purposes and we hated him because he simply wasn't Bill. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brock Posted December 25, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 25, 2012 To hear Rue tell it, however, the clash between Bea and Betty was more of a clash of work styles than anything else. Betty, who as Allen used to say "got her start in silent television" liked to interact and entertain the audience when lines were flubbed or between takes, and Bea getting her start in the theatre was much more serious on set. That being said, both made a point to be above and beyond professional with each other and insisted on having lunch together every day. In rehearsal and behind-the-scenes footage, Bea and Betty seemed genuinely warm with each other. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Annaleigh Posted December 25, 2012 Report Share Posted December 25, 2012 The Betty/Bea fracus saddens me more because Betty is such a lovely person and really did nothing to warrant it and in fact went above and beyond IMO to repair it. I agree knowing how hostile Bea was in real life to her really colors thoses scenes now when she feigns affection although honestly it never rang true before since Bea's personality made it impossible to believe her in the "warm" scenes. Knowing Frawley was a real life grouch isn't so bad since he's basically that on the show if a friendlier one. He does a better job than Bea though diving into the character and not letting personal feelings sink through the performance (same for Vivian). And given Fred and Ethel's fairly combative relationship it isn't as harsh a contrast. Yeah that Bea and Betty thing is just sad. It's one sided too! Betty adored Bea and never have understood why she didn't like her. That was just down right rude to Betty. I do think Bea loved Betty but annoyed the shit out of her and let it get the best of everything. It did seem like it was jealousy but blamed it on her too happy personality. Getting mad because of Betty's interaction with the audience and how Betty 'thought' she was the star. I don't think Betty did think that at all, people just fell in love with her character and knew of her well. Also wasn't Bill fine with Viv until she said that father remark? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucyilove Posted December 25, 2012 Report Share Posted December 25, 2012 Yeah that Bea and Betty thing is just sad. It's one sided too! Betty adored Bea and never have understood why she didn't like her. That was just down right rude to Betty. I do think Bea loved Betty but annoyed the shit out of her and let it get the best of everything. It did seem like it was jealousy but blamed it on her too happy personality. Getting mad because of Betty's interaction with the audience and how Betty 'thought' she was the star. I don't think Betty did think that at all, people just fell in love with her character and knew of her well. Also wasn't Bill fine with Viv until she said that father remark? I think it boils down to Bea Arthur just was one of those people who are more often than not in a bad mood or at least the potential for it is always there. Rufus Wainwright tells about running into Bea early in his career and "complimenting" Bea that she was like a grandmother to him which did not get an exactly grandmotherly response http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0088526/board/flat/198617302 the story is in the first post's link but I posted the full thread because it's interesting to see how different fans reacted to the story. Someone always cheery and upbeat like Betty was bound to get a LITTLE on a Bea Arthur type's nerves. I don't think it's a big deal that they didn't become bosom buddies, nobody does with everyone they work with but it is disappointing Bea didn't mind bitching about Betty to friends and particularly in her one-woman Broadway show and she reportedly snubbed Betty on occasion in public post GG. She was nice on occasion to her also, though. Maybe she didn't mean it as nasty at it came off; we all know for example she adored Estelle Getty yet she still hit the roof most of the time when Estelle forgot her line or lost her place. I thought Frawley started the War of the Mertzs with his comment about getting a fat broad for a costar but maybe Viv's comment about his age came first. I do think they intensely disliked each other but I don't think there was that much trouble on the set on it as both of them were quite glad to have the ILL gig and wouldn't want Lucy and Desi to tell them to cool it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucyilove Posted December 25, 2012 Report Share Posted December 25, 2012 Yeah, neither of us is saying Bea wasn't talented and great in the role but the lovable character was definitely Rose and Betty played her perfectly. I've always said the loopy or dim character is ALWAYS the most beloved on a show, is it because we feel superior to them, i dunno, maybe it's the fact that they have better lines or play it better, that's all. You care more about them, Edith Bunker, Joey on Friends, Phoebe on the same show, they got a two for one on that show. Sometimes Lucy was clever shrewd, sometimes she was just a dim bulb but she was always lovable. Always wondered where they dug up Bill's replacement on My Three Sons, he was NOT lovable in any way. Bill hated him for taking his job, that he lost for health insurance purposes and we hated him because he simply wasn't Bill. Wow, I didn't know Frawley was canned from M3S, Did Bill start drinking again or something? I always thought he had passed away and then they brought in William Demarest. Demarest was a pretty good character actor from old Hollywood, particularly in Preston Sturges movies like THE MIRACLE OF MORGAN'S CREEK but he was kind of one-note on M3S. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Annaleigh Posted December 25, 2012 Report Share Posted December 25, 2012 I think it boils down to Bea Arthur just was one of those people who are more often than not in a bad mood or at least the potential for it is always there. Rufus Wainwright tells about running into Bea early in his career and "complimenting" Bea that she was like a grandmother to him which did not get an exactly grandmotherly response http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0088526/board/flat/198617302 the story is in the first post's link but I posted the full thread because it's interesting to see how different fans reacted to the story. Someone always cheery and upbeat like Betty was bound to get a LITTLE on a Bea Arthur type's nerves. I don't think it's a big deal that they didn't become bosom buddies, nobody does with everyone they work with but it is disappointing Bea didn't mind bitching about Betty to friends and particularly in her one-woman Broadway show and she reportedly snubbed Betty on occasion in public post GG. She was nice on occasion to her also, though. Maybe she didn't mean it as nasty at it came off; we all know for example she adored Estelle Getty yet she still hit the roof most of the time when Estelle forgot her line or lost her place. I thought Frawley started the War of the Mertzs with his comment about getting a fat broad for a costar but maybe Viv's comment about his age came first. I do think they intensely disliked each other but I don't think there was that much trouble on the set on it as both of them were quite glad to have the ILL gig and wouldn't want Lucy and Desi to tell them to cool it. Viv was thin when ILL first started. I think Viv's remark sparked Bill. Then naturally the fat jokes on the show helped him along. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C L A U D E Posted December 25, 2012 Report Share Posted December 25, 2012 To hear Rue tell it, however, the clash between Bea and Betty was more of a clash of work styles than anything else. Betty, who as Allen used to say "got her start in silent television" liked to interact and entertain the audience when lines were flubbed or between takes, and Bea getting her start in the theatre was much more serious on set. That being said, both made a point to be above and beyond professional with each other and insisted on having lunch together every day. In rehearsal and behind-the-scenes footage, Bea and Betty seemed genuinely warm with each other. So, maybe it was the same story for Bill and Viv, she loved to act and he loved baseball and tore only HIS lines outta the script and couldn't wait to leave and go home. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C L A U D E Posted December 25, 2012 Report Share Posted December 25, 2012 Also wasn't Bill fine with Viv until she said that father remark? Yeah, but she thought that the first minute she met him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C L A U D E Posted December 25, 2012 Report Share Posted December 25, 2012 Wow, I didn't know Frawley was canned from M3S, Did Bill start drinking again or something? I always thought he had passed away and then they brought in William Demarest. Demarest was a pretty good character actor from old Hollywood, particularly in Preston Sturges movies like THE MIRACLE OF MORGAN'S CREEK but he was kind of one-note on M3S. Books say they couldn't get insurance for him as his health was too far gone, so they HAD to let him go and he did not take it well and he'd constantly visit the set as he was loved there but eventually, as he kept insulting his replacement, they had to ask him not to come back. I agree that Mr Demarest just had a lousy part that he couldn't do anything with and it couldn't be easy, replacing Bill Frawley. My Three Sons, although i never missed it, was a weird show, i mean whoever heard of an actor, Fred MacMurray, filming ALL of his scenes for the show on the one time and then they filmed everything else without him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leenorman Posted December 25, 2012 Report Share Posted December 25, 2012 I hope Vivian passed happy...sounds like her life outside I Love Lucy was NOT that much of a picnic. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C L A U D E Posted December 25, 2012 Report Share Posted December 25, 2012 Nothing worse than tackling cancer all alone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Annaleigh Posted December 25, 2012 Report Share Posted December 25, 2012 She deserved happiness more than anything. That autobiography needs to be released, us fans deserve to know more about Viv. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luvsbway Posted December 26, 2012 Report Share Posted December 26, 2012 I never got the sense from what I read she tackled cancer alone. John was with her, but yes release that autobio. I think this is what Viv refers to on the most recent Dinah episode. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Annaleigh Posted December 26, 2012 Report Share Posted December 26, 2012 I never got the sense from what I read she tackled cancer alone. John was with her, but yes release that autobio. I think this is what Viv refers to on the most recent Dinah episode. I know. I wonder if she did go to publishers and they didn't want it. You never know back then, they only think of her as Ethel Louise Roberta Mae Potter Mertz! But now with the fan base of not only Lucy but her would make it a bestseller. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luvsbway Posted December 26, 2012 Report Share Posted December 26, 2012 The bio written about her I think did ok sales. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Annaleigh Posted December 26, 2012 Report Share Posted December 26, 2012 The bio written about her I think did ok sales. I know but if it is by her it might be different. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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