The Lucy Show 's Competition

[Neil]

This topic has been touched by in another thread but I couldn't find it.

Here are the stats on ABC and NBC shows opposite The Lucy Show.....None of them, save one: ABC's Rat Patrol, lasted longer than a season opposite The Lucy Show.  (And I'm not counting Laugh-In because it didn't become #1 until TLS had morphed into Here's Lucy).  Many were canceled midseason.  Most were canceled at the end of their TLS-competing year.  The only exceptions were said Rat Patrol and NBC's Andy Williams which ran on NBC at 9, the only year TLS didn't occupy the 8:30 time slot. (I assume our resident fact-checkers will let me know if I'm wrong)

As far as I can tell from the titles, only one comedy show ever competed and that one lasted only 1/2 season: "Captain Nice". In David C Tucker's book "Lost Laughs of 50s and 60s Television", he has a chapter on CBS's similarly-themed "Mr. Terrific" and mentions "Capt. Nice" and says (cap emphasis MINE) "(Capt. Nice) was condemned to go head to head with CBS's The Lucy Show and didn't fare so well, though SOME critics pegged it as 'BY FAR better plotted, fleshed out, sustained and produced' (this is a quote within my quote)  than its CBS counterpart."  This particular quote is not specifically footnoted though the whole piece is (without line references).

I respect David C Tucker's books and recommend them because the topics are fun, they're well-researched and written, fairly impartial and factual.  (check his other wonderful books

But I have to take exception to the use of  the word "some", which means to me more than two.  Even with some of the real clinkers of the Lucy in Los Angeles years (to date of Capt. Nice, that would be 1 1/2 seasons), I've never read one truly bad word said about the quality of TLS, especially a criticism of so many aspects of it.

Season 5 was a short season and what he quoted was certainly true of the handful of first run episodes that competed with "Captain" , which are among the weakest of the entire series, but of course these critics couldn't have known that before they aired.

They were:

"Viv Visits Lucy"---which I like until the highly implausible Sunset Blvd. hippy scene with its spontaneously orchestrated choreography and sound effects added.  (the "boing" in "The Arrow" dance is particularly irksome).  I especially don't like that the whole thing is resolved when it is found that "Herbie Walton" is merely doing research for a college paper and is not one of THEM.  Such a let-down for a Carmichael-Bagley/Bunson reunion.

"Lucy Babysits" the chimps, one of the first episodes with very little plot, something it had more in common with many Here Lucy's.  Lucy's as game as can be expected, but there seems to be very little script--one of the first penned by Milt, assuming he used a pen and not a crayon.

"Mainstreet part one" which I enjoy if only for its change of pace and ambitiousness. But as Lucy would say about Marjorie Lord: "Oh that Bancroft and its sickening sweetness!!".  It's doubtful that by 1967 such a small town utopia with shiny (waxed?) streets and a general store with a pickle barrel  existed.

"Mainstreet--part 2" a completely unnecessary episode which I'm sure was prompted by the Desilu investment in the Bancroft sets. Mel Torme is particularly sickeningly smug in this one.  Yuck.

"Lucy Meets the Law" is only one in this stretch of episodes that I like, mainly because of Iris Adrian and Jody Gilbert.  Written by one-episode writer Alan J. Levitt, it shows that he didn't have a complete grasp of the Lucy character.  (Side note on this episode: whenever I visit LA , drive down Melrose and cross Western Av., no matter how hard I try not to, I replay in my head the dialogue with Lucy's references.  'Western Avenue?  Sometimes I go down Melrose".....Ditto ILL's  "Red Bluff, California" and "Riverside??!!", by the way)

"Fight Manager" with Don Rickles is OK, but no great shakes.  Enjoyable enough once, but no reason to re-watch.

"Tennessee Ernie" is among my least favorite TLS, through no fault of Ernie's.  I just can't stand that barn dance charade at the bank. And it's out of character for Lucy to do something so devious strictly for money, the banks.  And if after Homer Higgins was to deposit all his money in Mooney's bank, were they going to keep up this elaborate deception?  Like Mainstreet-part 2, it's such a flimsy and obvious excuse to stage well-executed but embarrassingly unimaginative musical numbers.  It's hard to believe "TE" and "Mainstreet 2" aired the same season as the experimental  "Lucy in London".

And "Sheldon Leonard" is a bit dull. Not horrible, but immediately forgetable.

(Did I leave any out?)

As a whole, I like the 5th season, many are among my favorite non-Bob/Madelyn TLSs, but all of the strong episodes already aired by the time of "Captain Nice"'s premiere.   Most of the episodes mentioned above add nothing to the Lucy lore and contribute to The Lucy Show's undeserved so-so-to-bad rep.

(I didn't start out this post with the idea I would get so long winded...., but I haven't posted a long one in a while, so forgive me)

[Mr. Wilson]

Captain Nice was only the second comedy to compete against The Lucy Show.  The first was Wendy & Me which aired during the 1964-65 season on ABC.  This was the only year that The Lucy show was moved to 9:00 pm.  At the end of the season The Lucy Show was in 8th place with a 26.6 rating and 40% share of audience and Wendy And Me wasn't even in the top 50 and was cancelled after one season.  On NBC The Andy Williams Show fared a little better but did not make the Top 30.  Lucy was the 9:00 pm winner, however, the 9:30 show that followed it Many Happy Returns with John McGiver took a huge fall from Lucy and was beaten by Williams in the 9:30 time slot.  Many Happy Returns only lasted one season.

 

You mentioned Laugh-In beating Here's Lucy, which is true, however, during 1968-69 season Laugh-In was the number one show with a 31.8 rating but Here's Lucy (first season) still managed to make the top 10 in 9th place with a 23.8 rating and 33% share of the audience.  ABC aired Peyton Place which got clobbered in the ratings and was cancelled after five years.  During the 1969-70 season Laugh-In was still number one but the rating fell to a 26.3 rating while Here's Lucy climbed to 6th place with a 23.9 rating.  Finally, during the third season of Here's Lucy topped Laugh-In - Lucy was CBS' top series for the year (1970-71) with a 26.1 rating and in third place just behind Welby and Flip Wilson.  Laugh-In fell to 14th place with a 22.4 rating.   Lucy was always a ratings champ and holds the record for the only performer with the most Top 10 placements - a total of 16.  The only two seasons Lucy didn't finish in the Top 10 was 72-73 (season five) at number 15 with a 21.9 and 33% share of audience and number one in her time slot beating NFL Football on ABC and NBC Monday Night Movie and season six (final TV season) 73-74 which fell to a respectable 29th place with a 20.0 rating and 31% share of the audience.  She finished second to NFL Football which was in 18th place but beat ABC and NBC Monday Night Movies in the 9:00 time slot.  I always felt Lucy should have quit after season five but was coerced by Fred Silverman to do another season which was for sentimental reasons only. 

 

[Neil]

I'd forgotten about Wendy and Me.  NickAtNite in their glory days (godbless'em) would run these one season shows for a while.  I caught an episode.  Connie Stevens's character was a thinly-veiled attempt to replace Gracie in a similar format.  Like Lucy, Gracie's original style was something she owned and it just could not be replicated by another performer.  Gracie and Lucy were first of all, great actresses and superb technicians, so much so they made it look easy.

Poor George Burns lost Gracie to a heart attack shortly before Wendy and Me debuted; and then had the misfortune to have his network comeback scheduled opposite "The Lucy Show". 

People talk about Desi not getting the credit he deserves.  The same can be said for George Burns, who launched a lucrative TV industry of his own. Though he did not run a whole studio like Desi, he was the brains behind a lot of successful shows including his own. "The Bob Cummings Show" "Mr. Ed" to name two. I'm addicted to "Burns and Allen" currently running on Antenna TV.  I knew of it of course, but until I started watching this run, I had no idea it was such a clever and innovative show. Never an Emmy winner or ratings smasheroo, it did well enough to last 8 seasons.  It would have run even longer if Gracie hadn't wanted to retire.  And retire, she did.  Never again appearing before any camera (that I'm aware of).  "B&A" did not have the revered after-life that I Love Lucy did, but I think it was under-rated and under-appreciated.  It deserves a spot when the history is told. 

[C L A U D E]

I also forgot about Wendy and Me, although we loved Connie Stevens, she had starred in some successful movies and dramas on tv, I was not a fan of George, whom I also loved, talking to the camera, I had no idea Gracie had just passed on, was she to be the original star when he planned the show?  And I also had no idea he was behind Mr Ed and Bob Cummings, two shows we never missed.

[Luvsbway]

 

I’ve been watching George and Gracie on Antenna TV too and this is a good show. I never had seen anything of Gracie at length and she is a unique talent. The parts with George is talking to the audience bore me as I just want Gracie to come back. I like the supporting players in this too. I was rather confused when I saw one episode where they seemed to be in a NYC apt instead of a house in CA. Was there a location more at some point in this series?

[Neil]

The Burns and Mortons did the reverse of the Ricardos and Mertzes and spent a season or so in a New York hotel.

My favorite story arcs are: 1) Gracie rattles Long Island socialite (what else?) Doris Packer as Mrs. Sommers so much that it culminates in the episode "Mrs. Sommers Sees a Psychiatrist".  2) Gracie is accidentally hypnotized and becomes an extremely serious and intelligent woman.  Ultimately goes on a $64,000 Question like quiz show.  George is worried that he's losing his meal ticket and wants her un-hypnotized.  Instead Blanche gets it and turns into Gracie!  

They did a LOT of episodes each season, sometimes 40, the same season I Love Lucy did 26.  No wonder Gracie was tired.  It's such a dialogue-heavy show.  It must have been a bear to memorize all those scripts.  The last season Gracie is reading from cue cards.

[Neil]

I also forgot about Wendy and Me, although we loved Connie Stevens, she had starred in some successful movies and dramas on tv, I was not a fan of George, whom I also loved, talking to the camera, I had no idea Gracie had just passed on, was she to be the original star when he planned the show?  And I also had no idea he was behind Mr Ed and Bob Cummings, two shows we never missed.

No, Gracie was firmly retired.  George tried another season with the same cast sans Gracie (on NBC) with "the George Burns Show", but it was like "Golden Palace" without Bea; or more like  Desi doing I Love Lucy with just him and the Mertzes.  The format was abandoned mid-season and it became a variety show, but was gone by the end of the season. 1958 was the year sitcoms and variety shows were falling out of favor and that "Western Craze" was in full swing, so that may have been a factor too.  George was not ready to retire and tried nightclub acts with Gracie substitutes: Dorothy Provine and Carol Channing.  Then he turned Connie Stevens into Gracie. And of course in 1966 he had Lucy doing Gracie for their show, recreating dialogue that was obviously straight from the Burns and Allen act.

Gracie died in August of 1964 and "Wendy" debuted in September. Must have been a rough time for George, but ever the trouper, he went on with the show.  Gracie had had heart trouble for years.  All the obits listed her age as 58.  If wikipedia is to be believed she was actually 69, a year OLDER than George.

[C L A U D E]

The ONLY time I recall Lucy even mentioning her competition was when she mentioned that teens watched The Mod Squad while women watched her along with older men and kids during the day also.  Was that opposite Here's Lucy?

[Luvsbway]

There is the cut line from the end of the Burton episode referencing Laugh In.

[C L A U D E]

Well, I certainly feel better thinking she was more than a decade older than stated at that time.  I always loved George and the one he did with Lucy was certainly one of her best shows.  One of the books I read recently really emphasizes the close style of comedy that Lucy and Gracie shared.  But i'll refrain from stating what word they used to describe it, but you can guess I'm sure. 

[C L A U D E]

Yeah but that was on a show, I meant her directly mentioning any competition on talk shows or in various articles.  Every time I saw Laugh In, I would start hating her friends who appeared on that show, LOL!  Mostly they were the same people.  God knows Laugh In lines were used often on her shows.

[Neil]

The ONLY time I recall Lucy even mentioning her competition was when she mentioned that teens watched The Mod Squad while women watched her along with older men and kids during the day also.  Was that opposite Here's Lucy?

"Mod -First they got busted; then they got badges'- Squad" was never actually opposite The Lucy Show or Here's, to my knowledge anyway.

And didn't she say older WOMEN and not men?

When Rat Patrol was opposite The Lucy Show, maybe the logic was "We'll counter-program. Instead of rats, we'll use chimps and apes!"--I think season 5, the first opposite "RP" had the most of any one season featured so prominently in the story lines.

I found it strange that so many Laugh In lines were used in Here's Lucy, which meant her own writers were watching it instead of their show.

[Brock]

No, Gracie was firmly retired.  George tried another season with the same cast sans Gracie (on NBC) with "the George Burns Show", but it was like "Golden Palace" without Bea; or more like  Desi doing I Love Lucy with just him and the Mertzes.  The format was abandoned mid-season and it became a variety show, but was gone by the end of the season. 1958 was the year sitcoms and variety shows were falling out of favor and that "Western Craze" was in full swing, so that may have been a factor too.  George was not ready to retire and tried nightclub acts with Gracie substitutes: Dorothy Provine and Carol Channing.  Then he turned Connie Stevens into Gracie. And of course in 1966 he had Lucy doing Gracie for their show, recreating dialogue that was obviously straight from the Burns and Allen act.

Gracie died in August of 1964 and "Wendy" debuted in September. Must have been a rough time for George, but ever the trouper, he went on with the show.  Gracie had had heart trouble for years.  All the obits listed her age as 58.  If wikipedia is to be believed she was actually 69, a year OLDER than George.

 

Very interesting. I didn't know the show itself tried to go on after Gracie retired. It is such a shame Lucy and Gracie never worked together beyond radio.

[Neil]

Very interesting. I didn't know the show itself tried to go on after Gracie retired. It is such a shame Lucy and Gracie never worked together beyond radio.

Also a shame Gracie never won an Emmy. Nominated many times, but losing twice to Lucy and once to Eve Arden, but also lost to the likes of Jane Wyatt of Father Knows Best and twice to Nanette Fabray in what was essentially a 2nd banana to Sid Caesar.  Not knocking either of these women, but Gracie was overlooked because she was pegged as one of those actresses who"essentially played themselves".  George protected Gracie's image.  Like Desi, he didn't let Gracie do talk shows (not sure I agree with Desi's edict).  The public did not know the real Gracie Allen, who was probably closer to Gracie the genius (under hypnosis) than her loopy logic-ed scatterbrain character.  "Burns and Allen" was nominated 4 times but was shut out  its last 3 years, which are superior, I think, to the earlier Fred Clark/Harry Morton years.  When  "Burns and Allen" ended, it was not showing show fatigue at all.  George suffered Desi's fate of being overshadowed by his wife and was completely ignored by the Emmy people, as were the very clever writers probably because Gracie was such a great actress, it seemed like she was making up her own dialogue!

[C L A U D E]

Just checked, Mod Squad ran from '68 to '73 and I am quoting Lucy but she could have just mentioned the show WITHOUT it's being in competition with her.