Caewi Posted March 24, 2014 Report Share Posted March 24, 2014 I have mixed feelings regarding Gary. Previously I have always accepted that although he lacked Desi's business acumen, he wasn't particularly warm or charming and he wasn't the love of her life, he DID make her laugh, he didn't embarrass her, he didn't cheat and he was reliable. Now I'm seriously questioning the innocent view I've always held of Gary. Cheating It's unquestionable that Desi cheated throughout their marriage and that he hurt her very badly by doing so. Yet if you read My Lucy Years by Sharon Thober it's made quite clear that Gary did the same. Apparently Sharon (a wardrober on the Lucy show) was talking with a male actor. He said that Gary had called him up and asked for the name of a call girl while Lucy was filming the Facts of Life. He ASKED for her name. The actor have it to him and received a call a few days later from the call girl who was disgusted by Gary and called him a weirdo and a pervert. Apparently Gary didn't just need to use a call girl that minute that Lucy was safely away and filming, but apparently given the chance he engaged in some very strange practices with her To me this is an even bigger betrayal and paints Gary in a WORSE light than Desi. At least Desi was raised to believe it was okay - that's not an excuse her should have known better and he knew he was hurting her. But at least you could understand why he did it. Gary knew how terribly it would hurt Lucy and how humiliated she had been after Desi but as soon as he thought she wouldn't find out he grabbed his chance. To me this is made worse by the fact that he wasn't the love of her life, she didn't love him enough to forgive him or live with it, she just didn't know about it. Who knows perhaps this is why it happened. Perhaps she wasn't the love of his life either and although it convenient arrangement for both of them, he wanted more when the chance presented itself. Business Skills We all know that Gary didn't have the business success of Desi but after listening to a number of interviews it seems that the only one who didn't know this was Gary himself . Herbert Solow mentioned in his interview on the Archive of American Television that Desi was a creative genius and that Gary carried on with far more importance than her deserved. He stated that the only time her got into a disagreement with Lucy was when she came to him and said that she wanted Gary to be the executive producer on a number of the Desilu shows .Obviously Lucy was trying to lift up his ego. Bernie Witzeman also mentioned in his interview that Gary had no creative skills of any kind. We know that applied to Lucy (night of 100 stars catastrophe) and professionally (Star Trek street). It's not a problem per se that Gary actually didn't have real skills. If he had kept his head down and made small contributions no one would have blinked. What killed him was that he apparently expected to have his ideas treated with great importance. Howard Rayfield mentions in his book that Gary would tell everyone how to do their jobs even though they were the best in the business and he had no idea. Now I think this must have been pretty embarrassing to Lucy's reputation. Behind her back most of the crew were apparently laughing at Gary and calling him names like Numb Nuts. For a women who knew her work so well and was the best in the business, putting a man who lacked talent in such a high role and then having him under perform and become the butt of jokes due to his behavior, must have been awfully embarrassing. Money Last but not least we get to an area that was VERY important to Gary, money! Being frugal is one thing but being the cheapest man in town in quite another. While he drove his newest Rolls onto the stage, he was asking staff members to hand in their stamps at the petrol station. Talk about tacky! Such blatant greed and disregard for the welfare of those that worked for them was not a good look. Considering Lucy herself had put so many years into charity it certainly didn't help her image. This is only made worse by the perception that Gary was 'in the wife business'. Others clearly saw Gary as making an income of Lucy and I think we all have wondered if this was his primary motivation for marrying her. We will never know and I might be completely wrong but all those around them seemed to think that there wasn't an overwhelming level of love between them both. Frank mentioned in his interview with Stu that Lucy had great fondness for Gary but was in love with Desi. Put all of this together and feel as though Gary's true colours may be those of a man who married to bring himself into wealth. Once he was in a comfortable spot he made sure he was taken care of. When he had the chance, he cheated. Combine this with his embarrassing behavior at the studio and his status and the laughing stock of the set and you have to ask, was he actually any better for Lucy than Desi. Desi had his faults but it's hard to question that he loved Lucy and never actively meant to hurt her. At the very least they loved each other with all of their hearts and carried on being soul mates and supportive friends for the rest of their lives. Gary can't really make any such claim to fame. Let's not forget either that Lucy apparently didn't know about many of Gary's faults until the end of her life (Stu's show interview) so she may never have know about Gary's true colours. Okay, rant over but I now have SERIOUS doubts about Gary! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FreddieMertz Posted March 24, 2014 Report Share Posted March 24, 2014 I've never heard the cheating thing before. I don't know what to think of this. What about after HL and Mame ended filming, and all lucy had to do was sit around the house all day. Gary gave her someone to talk to and play Scrabble with. Lucy would have gone crazy without him-even if he was a dumb*ss! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caewi Posted March 24, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 24, 2014 The story of Gary cheating is in My Lucy Years by Sharon Thober. It's approximately $3.00 from Amazon but only available as an e-book. Linky is here http://www.amazon.com/My-Lucy-Years-Sharon-Thober-ebook/dp/B0050K0VVI. That's a great point about him actually being with her and giving her someone to talk with. Let's consider that a Gary tick! Although I think that there have been suggestions that his attention may have tapered off towards the end when he dedicatedly a lot of time to golfing. Of course if you believe Lee Tannen, Lucy spent most of her time time with him anyway!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brock Posted March 24, 2014 Report Share Posted March 24, 2014 Sharon Thorber's stories are interesting, but there are many questionable things in there. I don't recall the passage about Gary cheating during The Facts of Life, but that simply wouldn't work timeline-wise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luvsbway Posted March 24, 2014 Report Share Posted March 24, 2014 It seems that we have listened to/read a lot of the same information. I think Stu’s radio interviews are great and I love how so many in the inner circle were so candid. It really helps to help fill in the picture. The only source you site that I have not read is the e-book. First I’m not sure if you miss typed the movie or if this woman has it wrong, but Lucy did Facts of Life in the summer of 1960 before she went to NYC for Wildcat and therefore did not even know Gary then. Could it have been Critics Choice? Even that movie I find hard to believe as they had just gotten married and I don’t think he would have tried anything that quickly epically after she made it very clear that if any of that sort of thing went on he was history. I think it may have been on a Stu interview with someone I can’t recall right now, but Lucy said to Gary’s mom I can give him country clubs, etc… but if he ever looks at another woman he is gone. Also Critics Choice was done fully in LA so she wasn’t away. Could the movie have been Yours Mine and Ours? Lucy was on location in San Fran for a short time with this movie. I had heard about one unconfirmed story that something may have gone on during this movie. On the professional level. We know Gary was not that smart about the business. What I got to thinking is, was he self-aware about this? Did he really know that he wasn’t that good? I don’t think this occurred to him. I just finished the Solo Start Trek book and read the Europe street story, the stamp story and the fight Solo had with Lucy about Gary being in charge of more shows. I think Lucy was self-aware the he wasn’t the genius the first husband was. But I think that do to her personal insecurities she needed to have him involved. She loved nepotism and put everyone in the family to work so why not him. As strong and independent a woman she was I think she needed to rely on the men in her life so of course she wants him there. Third it worked so well in the first marriage to have the spouse run the business side so she could just concentrate on acting. I think she really just wanted to act and maybe wished Gary could help in the business more since she hated it. But I think she also was aware that he did not know it that well. What Lucy did do studio wise was have some really smart people working under her that she trusted and made good decisions. It’s also not unknown that she did talk to Desi for advice. I think that with those factors she was able to make final decisions on really big shows like Mission Impossible and Star Trek. Shows that lost money but the studio kept faith in. That advice did not come from Gary. Once she sells the studio and just has her own production company that is where Gary becomes more involved. I think there probably were aspects that he did run ok, but I also think he lacked self-awareness. The Rolls story when they were talking about not giving pay increases, a comment he made once even showed that he didn’t even get the fact that he was riding his wife’s coattails. I think everyone is pretty much in agreement that professionally he was not good for her and as the years went on she depended on him way too much. She got older, she probably became more insecure on making her own decisions and turned to him too much. Lucy knew that LWL was not working and I wonder if she voiced her concerns to Gary or just kept that to herself. She knew she needed help and I was very surprised to hear Stu say that she was talking a lot to Desi on how to fix the show. The man is on his death bed but she relied on him so much for his good advice and general concern for her that he was trying to help. Professionally between them it came to what those 2 men put first. Desi put Lucy first because he knew they would not have what they did without her immense talent. Behind that he put the employees at the studio. They were treated fairly, given the resources they needed, the pay to keep them there. When he thought of getting out in the late 50’s one of the reasons he sighted was he did not want to put those people out of work. A wonderful quality and one Lucy also had as well. Gary put himself first. First to save money, first to make himself look good. On a personal level. I have to disagree with you about if they loved each other. Lucy said that she liked him before she loved him and we know that he made her laugh. I do think she rushed into a marriage. I think she always needed to be with a man and she said herself she was very lonely. I also think that she was really seriously considering going back to Desi. That never would have worked and would have ended badly again. As sad it was they couldn’t be together we all take solace in the fact they did remain as close as they did. It’s a fact confirmed by many that knew them they never stopped loving each other and where always there for one another. She had a very different second marriage and loved her husband in a very different way. I’ve read the letters in the Widow Morton auction and 2 things are evident in those. There was love there but there was also a good bit of reassurance there as well. Also in that auction there were some photos as well. Personal vacation photos are the ones I remember. Looking at those and also some of the home movies that are on the HL disks they seemed to have a close relationship and looked like a very happy couple. Of course there wasn’t the over flowing passion on display from the first marriage but that was a love for the ages never to be duplicated. In the BW interview when Barbara asks if this marriage is different Lucy’s face lights up. Lucy also says in this interview how depressed she was after the ending of HL and that Gary helped in more ways than he would ever know. Also on the TV Hall of Fame induction when they cut to the audience after Lucie is done singing Lucy is fully in tears but Gary is crying too. He helped raise those kids too so there was a general love there. That is a very real moment to me. Would he have been as moved if he wasn’t in love with her to also feel that close to her kids? Frank in some of the Stu interviews does say that Gary called her a lot to tell her where he was. Just sort of a checking in or that he was coming home soon. Now some can look at this as, hey if I account for my whereabouts then if I am off doing something else then she won’t know. I’ve heard it mentioned that she trusted that when he said he was on the golf course that’s where he was, unlike the first marriage. But it could have been as simple as just being a caring husband. Yes he had long times when he could have been doing other things. He didn’t go to Snowmass with her but rather to Palm Springs. Do I fully believe he never cheated on her, no. But I think this may have been a very rare thing because if he did people would have talked. That’s one of the reasons that it got so big in the late 50s was the level of fame. The more famous the parties involved the more people will talk. You also have to look at the time period too. The press got more tabloid as the years went on and stories sold. All of this may come off as me defending the guy which I’m not I just wanted to counter balance some of the things that often get mentioned. Could she have made a better choice in a husband for a second marriage, yes. Should she have had him involved in the business, no. Did she love him, yes. Was she happy with him in her life those 25+ years, yes. Did she wish if things were different that her first marriage would have lasted, yes. Was her heart always divided between 2 men, yes. Is all this intriguing to me, yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C L A U D E Posted March 24, 2014 Report Share Posted March 24, 2014 :gary:Hope to God Mikidiki never sees this thread. LOL! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C L A U D E Posted March 24, 2014 Report Share Posted March 24, 2014 There's another story in Rafayel's book about Howard and gary being in London for something and they get a call from that call girl involved in the Porfumo scandal. So gary says to Howard, that's all I need is for Lucy to hear about this, can't we just get blow jobs or something? If she says, while sitting next to him for the Walters interview, that if she ever finds out anything about him and another woman, he's history, I doubt he would have risked everything way back in their early marriage, BEFORE he had lined his pockets with money from her in every way possible. I can understand her not wanting to be known as having married a second rate comic, so she gave him a job, and yes, he abused his power, but in his shoes, who wouldn't? Must have been very hard being Mr Ball, ask Desi. And yes, he got everybody she loved out of her life except her mom and her kids, he certainly could not do anything about them. I think the real troubles must have come at the end, that age difference made her less appealing to him. He knew all her secrets which he could blackmail her with, and God knows there WAS a whole slew of them. She certainly did not want to go through another divorce and put up with him, and yes, as we always say, he held her hand, protected her, he was a decent looking man, the woman was always ahead of her time, so she was the big star with the boy toy even before it became IN. Shame she couldn't have met someone more suited to her stature and maybe someone who could have managed her career better, but who knows if she would have gotten worse instead of better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taylor Posted March 25, 2014 Report Share Posted March 25, 2014 The story of Gary's cheating with the call girl was during the filming of "Yours, Mine and Ours," not "The Facts of Life." Anyway, neither here nor there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brock Posted March 25, 2014 Report Share Posted March 25, 2014 I need to re-read that booklet, and skip over the ridiculous "Steven" chapter. lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caewi Posted March 25, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 25, 2014 Sorry, the call girl story was written in the book as Yours, Mine and Ours. My mistake! As this was the first I had heard of Gary cheating I was so flabbergasted the name of the movie escaped me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
desilufan2 Posted March 25, 2014 Report Share Posted March 25, 2014 Gary was not self aware. Thanks to Stu we can know that once and for all. When Gary told Stu that he didn't want to speak to Joe Hamilton because he didn't like men who made a living off their wives...... there's the whole story right there folks. Completely unaware. BEST GARY STORY EVER!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luvsbway Posted March 25, 2014 Report Share Posted March 25, 2014 I laughed my ass off at that one. You're right. It does tell the whole story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Annaleigh Posted March 25, 2014 Report Share Posted March 25, 2014 I already like this topic and I only read the title. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Annaleigh Posted March 25, 2014 Report Share Posted March 25, 2014 I already like this topic and I only read the title. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caewi Posted March 26, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 26, 2014 Wow, thanks for sharing yours insight. It seems that we have listened to/read a lot of the same information. I think Stu’s radio interviews are great and I love how so many in the inner circle were so candid. It really helps to help fill in the picture. The only source you site that I have not read is the e-book. First I’m not sure if you miss typed the movie or if this woman has it wrong, but Lucy did Facts of Life in the summer of 1960 before she went to NYC for Wildcat and therefore did not even know Gary then. Could it have been Critics Choice? Even that movie I find hard to believe as they had just gotten married and I don’t think he would have tried anything that quickly epically after she made it very clear that if any of that sort of thing went on he was history. I think it may have been on a Stu interview with someone I can’t recall right now, but Lucy said to Gary’s mom I can give him country clubs, etc… but if he ever looks at another woman he is gone. Also Critics Choice was done fully in LA so she wasn’t away. Could the movie have been Yours Mine and Ours? Lucy was on location in San Fran for a short time with this movie. I had heard about one unconfirmed story that something may have gone on during this movie.Definitely my mistake it was written in the book as Yours, Mine and Ours. Where does your other unconfirmed report come from? This would seem to suggest that there is some truth to the story. I know that the statistics tell us over half of all men cheat and I know that Desi did it often but considering how sensitive an issue Gary knew this was for Lucy, he has lost a lot of respect in my eyes. Two wrongs do not make a right and no one was clearer about how devastating she found this conduct that Lucy. That he made that choice is chilling and I can't help but focus on the report that he was a weirdo and a pervert. Goodness only know what he took his chance to do. I'm not for a moment saying that you support this conduct but to me this was a very significant discovery. I'm surprised that most people don't seem surprised, did I miss something everyone else knows? On the professional level. We know Gary was not that smart about the business. What I got to thinking is, was he self-aware about this? Did he really know that he wasn’t that good? I don’t think this occurred to him. I just finished the Solo Start Trek book and read the Europe street story, the stamp story and the fight Solo had with Lucy about Gary being in charge of more shows. I think Lucy was self-aware the he wasn’t the genius the first husband was. But I think that do to her personal insecurities she needed to have him involved. She loved nepotism and put everyone in the family to work so why not him. As strong and independent a woman she was I think she needed to rely on the men in her life so of course she wants him there. Third it worked so well in the first marriage to have the spouse run the business side so she could just concentrate on acting. I think she really just wanted to act and maybe wished Gary could help in the business more since she hated it. But I think she also was aware that he did not know it that well. What Lucy did do studio wise was have some really smart people working under her that she trusted and made good decisions. It’s also not unknown that she did talk to Desi for advice. I think that with those factors she was able to make final decisions on really big shows like Mission Impossible and Star Trek. Shows that lost money but the studio kept faith in. That advice did not come from Gary. Once she sells the studio and just has her own production company that is where Gary becomes more involved. I think there probably were aspects that he did run ok, but I also think he lacked self-awareness. The Rolls story when they were talking about not giving pay increases, a comment he made once even showed that he didn’t even get the fact that he was riding his wife’s coattails. I think everyone is pretty much in agreement that professionally he was not good for her and as the years went on she depended on him way too much. She got older, she probably became more insecure on making her own decisions and turned to him too much. Lucy knew that LWL was not working and I wonder if she voiced her concerns to Gary or just kept that to herself. She knew she needed help and I was very surprised to hear Stu say that she was talking a lot to Desi on how to fix the show. The man is on his death bed but she relied on him so much for his good advice and general concern for her that he was trying to help. Professionally between them it came to what those 2 men put first. Desi put Lucy first because he knew they would not have what they did without her immense talent. Behind that he put the employees at the studio. They were treated fairly, given the resources they needed, the pay to keep them there. When he thought of getting out in the late 50’s one of the reasons he sighted was he did not want to put those people out of work. A wonderful quality and one Lucy also had as well. Gary put himself first. First to save money, first to make himself look good. All very true. I don't think that Lucy was every in any doubt that Desi was the superior business and studio man. To be honest ai think that Lucy should have intervened in regards to the wages and money issues. Either that or perhaps she was also frightened if losing her wealth and she supported these decisions. I believe that Desi was as the more naturally generous person and perhaps without his lead she was led astray. I'm very curious about her calling Desi so often during LWL. I've heard varying reports as to how often these calls calls took place. Perhaps this was all show related but I think it's worth considering that it was more about Desi on the personal level. She was losing him and she knew it. The show may have provided and easier way to stay in touch with him at a time when she wanted to be with him but didn't,t know what to say. It's difficult to get admit your feelings for your ex after so many years. If I can track it down I'll add a great interview with Larry Anderson from LWL about that time. He talks about how sad Lucy was knowing that Desi was dying and and how that emotionally affected her during the show. He also mentioned that he didn't think either she or Gary was comfortable during this time as she couldn't discuss her love for Desi and how much his death was hurting her, with Gary. On a personal level. I have to disagree with you about if they loved each other. Lucy said that she liked him before she loved him and we know that he made her laugh. I do think she rushed into a marriage. I think she always needed to be with a man and she said herself she was very lonely. I also think that she was really seriously considering going back to Desi. That never would have worked and would have ended badly again. As sad it was they couldn’t be together we all take solace in the fact they did remain as close as they did. It’s a fact confirmed by many that knew them they never stopped loving each other and where always there for one another. She had a very different second marriage and loved her husband in a very different way. I’ve read the letters in the Widow Morton auction and 2 things are evident in those. There was love there but there was also a good bit of reassurance there as well. Also in that auction there were some photos as well. Personal vacation photos are the ones I remember. Looking at those and also some of the home movies that are on the HL disks they seemed to have a close relationship and looked like a very happy couple. Of course there wasn’t the over flowing passion on display from the first marriage but that was a love for the ages never to be duplicated. In the BW interview when Barbara asks if this marriage is different Lucy’s face lights up. Lucy also says in this interview how depressed she was after the ending of HL and that Gary helped in more ways than he would ever know. Also on the TV Hall of Fame induction when they cut to the audience after Lucie is done singing Lucy is fully in tears but Gary is crying too. He helped raise those kids too so there was a general love there. That is a very real moment to me. Would he have been as moved if he wasn’t in love with her to also feel that close to her kids? Frank in some of the Stu interviews does say that Gary called her a lot to tell her where he was. Just sort of a checking in or that he was coming home soon. Now some can look at this as, hey if I account for my whereabouts then if I am off doing something else then she won’t know. I’ve heard it mentioned that she trusted that when he said he was on the golf course that’s where he was, unlike the first marriage. But it could have been as simple as just being a caring husband. Yes he had long times when he could have been doing other things. He didn’t go to Snowmass with her but rather to Palm Springs. Do I fully believe he never cheated on her, no. But I think this may have been a very rare thing because if he did people would have talked. That’s one of the reasons that it got so big in the late 50s was the level of fame. The more famous the parties involved the more people will talk. You also have to look at the time period too. The press got more tabloid as the years went on and stories sold. All of this may come off as me defending the guy which I’m not I just wanted to counter balance some of the things that often get mentioned. Could she have made a better choice in a husband for a second marriage, yes. Should she have had him involved in the business, no. Did she love him, yes. Was she happy with him in her life those 25+ years, yes. Did she wish if things were different that her first marriage would have lasted, yes. Was her heart always divided between 2 men, yes. Is all this intriguing to me, yes. All great points. I think you were spot on in saying her heart was somewhat divided. However I have to disagree with you in saying that she was happy with Gary, especially during her final years. She was depressed. How much would seem to depend on who you believe (Lee v Stu!) I have no doubt that this was partly due to the lack of shows, but even while she was doing LWL she didn't appear overly happy. I think that she accepted her choice but mourned the loss of her true soulmate. Lee's book implies that she spent quite a bit of time reflecting on happier times with Desi. I think that she relied on his great joy and enthusiasm to provide a lot of her emotional strength. I think she may have never gotten over losing this piece of her heart and all that entailed. If she and Desi had stayed her relationship with kids and grand kids surely would have been better and she must have realised this. I think she was reflecting on these thoughts a lot during this time and that's not a recipe for content twilight years. Even before this I'm not convinced she was happy with Gary, accepting yes but happy no. Her comment to Frank about which husband on the phone suggests to me that Desi was still uppermost in her thoughts. I keep coming back to the fact that Frank said "she love" ...Hesitated and then said "she had great fondness for Gary". That change was active and and he deliberately avoided saying love. I take your point over they tears and the kids but let's face it, he wasn't exactly bawling. I think most people who had known the kids for a long time could manage a little tear - perhaps unfairly cynical I know. Perhaps the feelings weren't too strong on either side. I still believe that between cheating when the chance presented itself (without ever honestly telling her the truth), tacky studio behaviour, rudeness and lack of empathy with employees, he was quite possibly more embarrassing to her than Desi. Add that the fact that it's unlikely her made her truly, deeply happy and that she seemed to reserve her happiness and love for Desi and I'm unconvinced that he was the better choice. I think poor Lucy was doomed never to have the man and the happiness all in one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luvsbway Posted March 26, 2014 Report Share Posted March 26, 2014 I would love if you could find that Anderson article. I’m not sure if it was an interview I heard or something I read but the person working on LWL would sense that she seemed really down and she said on different occasions how Desi was not doing well. There are a few moments in LWL where you get these tender reflective moments on Sam the dead husband (ending Love Among the 2x4s, World’s Greatest Grandma, and the one where she rehires Curtis after she makes a mess of the store). It had to motivate her acting because she is very good and in those touching moments and believable when you know what was going on in her life. As far as a motivation for the phone calls I don’t think she had to hide why she was calling behind a pretense. I think all along they had a very open relationship between them to discuss anything. Now you might not want the other spouse hearing these conversations but I don’t think that prevented them from talking openly. I need to dig up some of these articles from the 70’s where Desi pretty much professes his continued love towards Lucy. It’s sweet but a little insincere towards his wife to make that so public. There is a marriage I want to know more about. As far as the depression goes you are sort of right, who do you believe Lee or Stu. Lee paints a very different picture of her than Stu does. I don’t know but I think I tend to lean a little more towards Stu. I just know more about him and have heard him talk more about her. Not to say she wasn’t depressed but Stu gives you more of a sense that she wasn’t clinically depressed the way Lee does and that she generally was happy.. I can agree with the comment that the marriage did have some hard times during Desi’s death. Of course Gary knew over the years the unspoken of how she did really lovedhim, but this was the true test. This was where I think whatever she was hiding to protect her marriage came to the surface. I heard it commented one time how she was being treated as the grieving widow but that she couldn’t openly show that she felt like that. Even the fact that she was so concerned for him when Edie died that she wanted to have him come stay in the guest house. That gesture shows a lot of their post divorce relationship. Thanks for your note on Frank’s comment. I probably heard it on a Stu interview but it didn’t phase me at the time. Wanda in one of those makes a point to say that Lucy seemed to catch on to I think what was known about Gary behind her back (studio/show/business wise) in the 80s. Which is worse to be embarrassed by staying with a spouse who cheats that makes you look like stupid that you didn’t know what was going on and still stay with them and has an uncontrollable drinking problem, or one who is an idiot and makes people wonder why you married them. I think in this society the second is forgiven more. Lucy’s divorce reason was not the cheating but mental cruelty. Yeah cheating will do that to you but it’s interesting she picked that. Stu mentions on more than one occasion how Gary was a fun guy to be around but makes no bones about how he really was an idiot in business. Do I think she was in a bad marriage towards the end. I don’t know, but she sure could not get out of it so you just make do with what you have. She was not going to start over again at that age. Maybe it was a marriage that dissolved into more of a friendship. And then if there is no sex you go elsewhere. She may have also been fearful that he would leave, stupid as that was since he was in a pretty cushy position. The YMO cheating story I think I picked up from Claude on here who probably got it from that e-book you mentioned or from the Rafiel book (but I read that one and don’t remember it.). Yeah I don’t get why this poor woman repeatedly got cheated on but I guess guys are like that. As far as the weird sex comments. What one person may think is weird sexually others may not. Human sexuality is an odd thing and some of the most straight laced people are into some pretty kinky stuff so I don’t have an issue with that comment. Love’s messy and hard and wonderful all at the same time. I do like your last line. You are so right. She had a happy marriage and a wonderful everlasting love but unfortunately they were not to the same man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
desilufan2 Posted March 27, 2014 Report Share Posted March 27, 2014 Lucy was depressed toward the end of her life. She more than once stated that when Here's Lucy ended it was very very traumatic for her. I don't trust Lee the way I do Stu as I have stated before but I do think Lees insights are of value. I completely believe him when he said Lucy didn't really want to live anymore toward the end. How many times did Lucy herself say in interviews that she didn't want to live much longer? Just the other night I saw her interview with Johnny on TCM and she brought it up AGAIN. I find it very insightful...and sad how often she said she didn't want to live much longer after she had less work. Combine that with the fact that the people who meant the most to her, like Desi and her mother Dede, had died and I think she was pretty much through. I think Stu went after Lee's book(which I don't think is always accurate but still useful and filled with plenty of truth) out of loyalty to Lucy and didn't want people to think of her as a poor pathetic woman who didn't have any fight in her(not that I think that was what Lee was going for). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caewi Posted March 28, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 28, 2014 I would love if you could find that Anderson article. I’m not sure if it was an interview I heard or something I read but the person working on LWL would sense that she seemed really down and she said on different occasions how Desi was not doing well. There are a few moments in LWL where you get these tender reflective moments on Sam the dead husband (ending Love Among the 2x4s, World’s Greatest Grandma, and the one where she rehires Curtis after she makes a mess of the store). It had to motivate her acting because she is very good and in those touching moments and believable when you know what was going on in her life. As far as a motivation for the phone calls I don’t think she had to hide why she was calling behind a pretense. I think all along they had a very open relationship between them to discuss anything. Now you might not want the other spouse hearing these conversations but I don’t think that prevented them from talking openly. I need to dig up some of these articles from the 70’s where Desi pretty much professes his continued love towards Lucy. It’s sweet but a little insincere towards his wife to make that so public. There is a marriage I want to know more about. As far as the depression goes you are sort of right, who do you believe Lee or Stu. Lee paints a very different picture of her than Stu does. I don’t know but I think I tend to lean a little more towards Stu. I just know more about him and have heard him talk more about her. Not to say she wasn’t depressed but Stu gives you more of a sense that she wasn’t clinically depressed the way Lee does and that she generally was happy.. I can agree with the comment that the marriage did have some hard times during Desi’s death. Of course Gary knew over the years the unspoken of how she did really lovedhim, but this was the true test. This was where I think whatever she was hiding to protect her marriage came to the surface. I heard it commented one time how she was being treated as the grieving widow but that she couldn’t openly show that she felt like that. Even the fact that she was so concerned for him when Edie died that she wanted to have him come stay in the guest house. That gesture shows a lot of their post divorce relationship. I've copied the relevant portions of the Anderson interview below - it's great! "I think in some ways Gary Morton was problematic," Larry speculates, "and maybe he was one of the reasons the network pulled the plug. He insisted on being the producer. He insisted on doing the editing, (which was less than adept). He also insisted on doing the warm-ups (for the audience). And called the shots on God knows how many other things. The show had his finger prints on everything. I mean, he was a pleasant enough guy, but he was not skilled in all the areas that he thought he was, and the show suffered because of it." There were other reasons that Life proved challenging for Lucy. At the time, Desi Arnaz, her former business and marriage partner, was very ill and, as Larry relays, "the handwriting was on the wall. He wasn't going to last long, and he died shortly after the show was canceled. So there were days when she came in and you could see that she was really down and depressed. It must have been tough for her, too, because she was married to Gary at the time, and all the feelings that she had for Desi, all the years they had spent together…everything they went through…all the reminiscing. I'm sure she was very conflicted about a lot of things. To then have the responsibility of the show? Well, it just had to be very overwhelming for her." Here is the kinky to the whole article. There is more about getting hired and Lucy's character. http://www.mediabizbloggers.com/herbie-pilato/Larry-Anderson-Talks-Life-And-Work-With-Lucy-Lee-Majors-Charlies-Angels-Bill-Bixby-Happy-Days-and-More---Herbie-J-Pilato.html I know that you're right and they were open that they also cared but I think on his death bed it must have been different. Those phone calls weren't just father of my children, always love you and care about you type of discussions. I think Luvy wanted to admit how she felt considering it must have overwhelmed her at the time. We know from the final phone call that she finally did tell him how she felt and just kept saying Desi I love you. I would guess that she'd wanted to say it for a while but was struggling to admit it. They were both proud and stubborn and that couldn't have been an easy thing to talk about. That's what I meant when I said maybe the phone calls were a bit of an excuse. Perhaps she needed to hear his voice, to keep on checking in with him and to make sure he knew that she wa still in love ith him. That would be very difficult to admit to oneself and convey in just one conversation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caewi Posted March 28, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 28, 2014 Lucy was depressed toward the end of her life. She more than once stated that when Here's Lucy ended it was very very traumatic for her. I don't trust Lee the way I do Stu as I have stated before but I do think Lees insights are of value. I completely believe him when he said Lucy didn't really want to live anymore toward the end. How many times did Lucy herself say in interviews that she didn't want to live much longer? Just the other night I saw her interview with Johnny on TCM and she brought it up AGAIN. I find it very insightful...and sad how often she said she didn't want to live much longer after she had less work. Combine that with the fact that the people who meant the most to her, like Desi and her mother Dede, had died and I think she was pretty much through. I think Stu went after Lee's book(which I don't think is always accurate but still useful and filled with plenty of truth) out of loyalty to Lucy and didn't want people to think of her as a poor pathetic woman who didn't have any fight in her(not that I think that was what Lee was going for). Very true that both Lee and Stu's insights are valuable. I wonder if their perspectives differ because they saw her in different contexts. Much of Stu's interactions were based around her shows while lee's was almost solely personal. I wonder if Lucy found it easier and more enjoyable to talk about her work as opposed to her life, family and feelings. Her personal life always seemed difficult when you consider her relationship wasn't all she wished it was, her kids weren't close and she was losing the people she loved. Perhaps she was depressed but work was an escape, this could account for some of their different perspectives. Would she have been anywhere near as depressed if she and Desi had bottom back together after a few years and worked through some if their problems? I don't think so. I think if she'd had Desi (not saying it was a realistic possibility) she would have felt more fulfilled, content and wanted to here to share live and love for longer. Great point about Stu's loyalty! He has her back Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caewi Posted March 28, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 28, 2014 Oops, meant gotten back together not bottom back together. VERY different kind of reunion! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taylor Posted March 28, 2014 Report Share Posted March 28, 2014 Oops, meant gotten back together not bottom back together. VERY different kind of reunion! LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luvsbway Posted March 28, 2014 Report Share Posted March 28, 2014 Thanks for that interview, it was wonderful. Such nice things to say about Gale and insights into Lucy at this time. He reiterates what Stu had said many times when he talks about LWL. Lucy really did take the blame and feel like she let people down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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