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yendor1152

Lucy and Mame? Oil and water!

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Just wanted to bump this one as it's my peace-offering post :)

 

This is a very nice and respectful post even though not all may agree with it. Nicely said and I may even say I can see your point on some things you stated here.

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Just wanted to bump this one as it's my peace-offering post :)

 

I always appreciate and respect your posts Lotus because you respect ours. Look, I'll happily admit it's not the greatest musical out there, far from it. Yes, I cringe at times when I watch it. There are some faults with it but the fact that Lucy is in it and she's not afraid to sing her own songs, dance her own dance, push herself to her limit, kudos to her! That's what I love about it! She has chutzpah! She's just being herself! She's not pretending to be anyone else, nor does she want to! That's why I don't care if her singing might be off key and who cares if the santa mask is creepy! I find it pathetic that people will nitpick to such a point as to say that's it's weird how slowly she pulls off the mask! LOL! WTF????

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I always appreciate and respect your posts Lotus because you respect ours. Look, I'll happily admit it's not the greatest musical out there, far from it. Yes, I cringe at times when I watch it. There are some faults with it but the fact that Lucy is in it and she's not afraid to sing her own songs, dance her own dance, push herself to her limit, kudos to her! That's what I love about it! She has chutzpah! She's just being herself! She's not pretending to be anyone else, nor does she want to! That's why I don't care if her singing might be off key and who cares if the santa mask is creepy! I find it pathetic that people will nitpick to such a point as to say that's it's weird how slowly she pulls off the mask! LOL! WTF????

Now THAT was well said and to the point. I never cringe at anything in it though. I cringe at know it alls venting their crap on a board that pays tribute to her. If he'd stick to legitimate criticisms, then it would be just fine with me, we all dance to different music.
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As Fred Mertz said on more than one occasion, "HOLY COW!" :bill1:

 

And, as Lucy Carmichael once said, "Children now please!" :lucy2:

 

Now, everyone. Take a deep breath. Is all of this really worth getting worked up over?

 

It's a movie. A long strip of celluloid that was captured nearly 40 years ago. Is a piece of film designed for the sole purpose of diverting one's attention for 2 hours worth all this vitriol?

 

No, I will never feel that this movie is a crowning achievement for anyone involved, I've stated that many times. And I think yendor had every right to start a thread on it. Obviously this is a topic he feels very passionatly on, and I think it's good to focus on Lucy's more divisive projects. But can all of us just take a step back and let people say their piece without all this pouncing? I'm not pointing out anyone in particular, and I'm including myself in this as well. So some of us like it and some of us don't. Let's all be adults here and not get overemotional.

 

After all, it's just a movie that everyone went into with good intentions and even if the final result failed to please many people (myself included) it was certainly an attempt. Nobody sets out to make a bad movie, and even I've been in a position where I thought I was doing something wonderful only to get kicked in the ass by reality in the end. It happens. We all have our follies; some work, some don't. Just because I don't love Lucy in Mame doesn't mean I don't love her in nearly everything else she did. I don't hold it against her. So voice your views all you want, nothing wrong with that, but let's not hold it against anyone for disagreeing with us. I don't want to see this board deteriorate.

 

Why not point anyone out? Claude (if that's his real name, which I doubt) started flinging the crap with his first post. There's very little room on this message board for rational, objective discussion about Lucille Ball without some "fan" piping in and tossing about insults because they perceive you as a "troll" who "doesn't really love Lucy." Sorry, but disliking something an artist has done doesn't mean you hate the person or think the artist is untalented. But unless you're willing to bow before the altar of Lucy and shout her praises to the heaven's, you're not welcomed here. That's perfectly obvious to me.

 

Frankly, though, I like toying with their minds. They always respond, they can't help themselves. And because they're all of a like-mind, they enjoy the gang mentality. If they dump on the naysayer hard and fast, he won't be able to take it, he'll just slink away...like poor Brian, whom they enjoying calling "Brain Damage." That's the kind of thing I mean, the nasty, obnoxious remarks flung about merely because someone disagrees with them. No wonder this board has such little activity except from "fans" like Claude. Mame is a bomb, it's just accepted fact. Nothing on this board is going to change that. Sorry.

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(Taylor said: "Half the things Yendor said about Mame are ridiculous, dearie. And I never said Lucy was above criticism. But if you don't have good valid points to back up your argument...well then you just show your ass. Sorry")

 

As much as I would have liked Mame to be the capstone of Lucy's career, I must grudgingly concede that Yendor's comments reflect the majority of opinion out there, so his (her?) points are just as valid as anyone's. Lucy stuck her neck out with Mame. The problem with taking chances in such a high profile way is that you take the risk of it not working and suffering that backlash. I feel that what has been written about Mame over the years contain too many personal unfair attacks on Lucy personally. And much like the discredited Vivian Vance contract that she remain 20 pounds overweight, many have gained acceptance just because they've been repeated often enough because we as a public like to read "diva" into a star's actions and then give her her comeuppance. The adulation we've given them in the past replaced by derision. (Whitney Houston??)

 

"she should've conceded to Angela" I don't know why people assume this was in her power. It's been said that Lucy either bought the role somehow or put up the financing, both of which are completely baseless and make no sense. It was not the practice of studios to seek financing from their star. I suppose she could have refused the offer, but I don't think Angela would have even been next in line. I think the producers had every reasonable expectation that the movie would be a success with Lucy. When a movie fails, there's hindsight blame all around--and Lucy got most of it. I doubt the movie as made would have been a success even with Angela, but at least the attacks would not have been against Angela herself. Why didn't Roz 'concede' Gypsy to Merman? Marilyn to Channing (Gentlemen Prefer..)? Streisand to Channing (Dolly)?

 

"Maybe you guys just don't realize what kind of character Mame Dennis is supposed to be. She IS bawdy (like Bette Midler)"

I don't think "bawdy" is the right word to describe Mame. If there is any bawdiness in the mame character, I don't see it in Roz's version either. May be implied in that she's "open to new windows". Midler's bawdiness is way too base: more like Rusty Warren than Mame Dennis.

 

"And where's the love between Mame and Patrick? I never saw it" I have to agree to a certain extent that this whole aspect of the Auntie Mame to Mame conversion is watered down...and it's the whole point of the piece. Other than the "Open a New Window" montage, we don't see much interaction...especially during the time gap between mame and Beau getting together and his death. We also don't see Patrick's transformation as he's seduced into the world of the Upsons. Nor do we see "Patwick" realize that Mame was right all along, a major flaw. However, none of this can be pinned on Lucy.

 

And speaking of no love lost: where's the bond between Patrick and Gooch? Adult Patrick treats her like just another servant: referring to her as if she's not in the room "What's AGNES doing here???"

 

 

 

.

Mame calls Patrick "Patwick" at least twice, right before she delivers the line about him being "babbity."

 

Maybe you guys just don't realize what kind of character Mame Dennis is supposed to be. She IS bawdy (like Bette Midler), she's bigger than life (something Lucy definitely is NOT in this film), and she isn't the kind of woman "suitable" for raising a young son. That's clearly established in the Roz Russell version and glossed over in Lucy's. Lucy as Mame wasn't outrageous, she wasn't full of life, and she never gave me the impression of someone who boozes it up all night and is "hung" in the morning. And where's the love between Mame and Patrick? I never saw it, not like Rosalind Russell displayed it--she truly looked like she had real affection for Patrick. Not Lucy.

 

If Lucy was such a stickler for having the Broadway cast repeat itself on film, she should've conceded to Angela. But no. She wanted to go out with a bang, and it destroyed her movie career.

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(Taylor said: "Half the things Yendor said about Mame are ridiculous, dearie. And I never said Lucy was above criticism. But if you don't have good valid points to back up your argument...well then you just show your ass. Sorry")

 

As much as I would have liked Mame to be the capstone of Lucy's career, I must grudgingly concede that Yendor's comments reflect the majority of opinion out there, so his (her?) points are just as valid as anyone's. Lucy stuck her neck out with Mame. The problem with taking chances in such a high profile way is that you take the risk of it not working and suffering that backlash. I feel that what has been written about Mame over the years contain too many personal unfair attacks on Lucy personally. And much like the discredited Vivian Vance contract that she remain 20 pounds overweight, many have gained acceptance just because they've been repeated often enough because we as a public like to read "diva" into a star's actions and then give her her comeuppance. The adulation we've given them in the past replaced by derision. (Whitney Houston??)

 

"she should've conceded to Angela" I don't know why people assume this was in her power. It's been said that Lucy either bought the role somehow or put up the financing, both of which are completely baseless and make no sense. It was not the practice of studios to seek financing from their star. I suppose she could have refused the offer, but I don't think Angela would have even been next in line. I think the producers had every reasonable expectation that the movie would be a success with Lucy. When a movie fails, there's hindsight blame all around--and Lucy got most of it. I doubt the movie as made would have been a success even with Angela, but at least the attacks would not have been against Angela herself. Why didn't Roz 'concede' Gypsy to Merman? Marilyn to Channing (Gentlemen Prefer..)? Streisand to Channing (Dolly)?

 

"Maybe you guys just don't realize what kind of character Mame Dennis is supposed to be. She IS bawdy (like Bette Midler)"

I don't think "bawdy" is the right word to describe Mame. If there is any bawdiness in the mame character, I don't see it in Roz's version either. May be implied in that she's "open to new windows". Midler's bawdiness is way too base: more like Rusty Warren than Mame Dennis.

 

"And where's the love between Mame and Patrick? I never saw it" I have to agree to a certain extent that this whole aspect of the Auntie Mame to Mame conversion is watered down...and it's the whole point of the piece. Other than the "Open a New Window" montage, we don't see much interaction...especially during the time gap between mame and Beau getting together and his death. We also don't see Patrick's transformation as he's seduced into the world of the Upsons. Nor do we see "Patwick" realize that Mame was right all along, a major flaw. However, none of this can be pinned on Lucy.

 

And speaking of no love lost: where's the bond between Patrick and Gooch? Adult Patrick treats her like just another servant: referring to her as if she's not in the room "What's AGNES doing here???"

 

 

 

.

 

It was not his opinions so much that irritated folks here, it was the way he obnoxiously said them over and over to try and make his points known. "Patwick" and "hawl out the hawley" said 150 times is being childish. Anyway, I think I've said all that needs to be said on THAT subject. Like I've said 1500 times before, although Mame is one of my favorite Lucy movies, I don't expect others to absolutely love it. But can we act like adults here when critiquing her movies?

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It was not his opinions so much that irritated folks here, it was the way he obnoxiously said them over and over to try and make his points known. "Patwick" and "hawl out the hawley" said 150 times is being childish. Anyway, I think I've said all that needs to be said on THAT subject. Like I've said 1500 times before, although Mame is one of my favorite Lucy movies, I don't expect others to absolutely love it. But can we act like adults here when critiquing her movies?

 

Hear Hear but I actually disagree with Neil stating that the original poster's remarks reflect the "majority of opinion out there". How do we know what the majority of people think about Mame? If I've ever heard anything negative about Mame, it's just Lucy's singing voice, nothing to the extent that the original poster states!

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Hear Hear but I actually disagree with Neil stating that the original poster's remarks reflect the "majority of opinion out there". How do we know what the majority of people think about Mame? If I've ever heard anything negative about Mame, it's just Lucy's singing voice, nothing to the extent that the original poster states!

 

Exactly. I think like Claude said earlier it's more like 50/50. I don't agree with the "majority" statement either.

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Hear Hear but I actually disagree with Neil stating that the original poster's remarks reflect the "majority of opinion out there". How do we know what the majority of people think about Mame? If I've ever heard anything negative about Mame, it's just Lucy's singing voice, nothing to the extent that the original poster states!

 

Ha. You make me laff. I posted the original message, and the first response (from Claude) started with, "Ok, you're back on my shit list." That's what you call rational and nice? He threw out the first volley, and the rest of you followed suit. The one difference is that you haven't gotten rid of me, not like you usually do with weaker folks.

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Ha. You make me laff. I posted the original message, and the first response (from Claude) started with, "Ok, you're back on my shit list." That's what you call rational and nice? He threw out the first volley, and the rest of you followed suit. The one difference is that you haven't gotten rid of me, not like you usually do with weaker folks.

 

You're chicken shit - couldn't even face me in the chat room! Think you're hot shit in threads but you have no balls one on one in the chat room!

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It was not his opinions so much that irritated folks here, it was the way he obnoxiously said them over and over to try and make his points known. "Patwick" and "hawl out the hawley" said 150 times is being childish. Anyway, I think I've said all that needs to be said on THAT subject. Like I've said 1500 times before, although Mame is one of my favorite Lucy movies, I don't expect others to absolutely love it. But can we act like adults here when critiquing her movies?

 

Oh, so it's ok for you to say something "1500 times," but you criticize me for "150 times?" Sheesh.

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You're chicken shit - couldn't even face me in the chat room! Think you're hot shit in threads but you have no balls one on one in the chat room!

 

I'll face you in the chat room, bitch. Go ahead.

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Oh, so it's ok for you to say something "1500 times," but you criticize me for "150 times?" Sheesh.

 

One difference: I'm not obnoxious about it. You are.

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This is a very nice and respectful post even though not all may agree with it. Nicely said and I may even say I can see your point on some things you stated here.

 

"Nice and respectful?" I can guarantee you've shat upon him previously for his Mame posts, but now--because you're desperately in need of an ally, and Lotus is being passive/aggressive--you're willing to accept him into the fold as "respectful." You guys are amazing. Hawwwwwl out that Holly! Cawols at the spinnet!

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WELL!!

 

I wasn't following this thread closely enough to know that it had descended into name calling! (To wit: banana nose..er...I mean asswipe).

 

Our minds are too old to be played with. Taken out to the park to relieve ourselves, perhaps. Can't we be forgiven if we sometimes lose it and soil the rug??

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WELL!!

 

I wasn't following this thread closely enough to know that it had descended into name calling! (To wit: banana nose..er...I mean asswipe).

 

Our minds are too old to be played with. Taken out to the park to relieve themselves, perhaps. Can't we be forgiven if we sometimes lose it and soil the rug??

 

Thank the wonderful "Claude" for that little insult. And better get out the carpet cleaner.

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"Nice and respectful?" I can guarantee you've shat upon him previously for his Mame posts, but now--because you're desperately in need of an ally, and Lotus is being passive/aggressive--you're willing to accept him into the fold as "respectful." You guys are amazing. Hawwwwwl out that Holly! Cawols at the spinnet!

 

I've never shat upon Lotus for his Mame posts. Only you and yours because apparently you don't like to act your age. Grow the hell up and maybe people will respect you more.

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I've never shat upon Lotus for his Mame posts. Only you and yours because apparently you don't like to act your age. Grow the hell up and maybe people will respect you more.

 

Respect from people like you? Please.

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I’m not going to offer any opinions on the current battle here as I think you all need to go to your neutral corners. What I find interesting is that Mame seems to be a very polarizing topic, not just in Lucy land. As a huge Broadway fan I read the message boards on Talking Broadway and Broadway World on a daily basis. Almost monthly there is a topic started about Mame. Should there be a revival?, Who would make a good Mame?, Was the movie any good?, etc… Some of these debates can get as heated as this one.

 

For example here is the most current thread.

http://broadwayworld.com/board/readmessage.php?thread=1054860&dt=60

 

I don’t even think Lucy and the movie get a mention until page three of the above thread. For such an old show that hasn’t been seen too much, it gets quit a lot of debate.

 

If you want to read more opinions from those outside our Lucy circle and in the Bway circle search the message boards on Broadway World to find more. Talking Broadway/All That Chat usually has more dignified and insightful discussion but they don’t achieve their posts for too long.

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If it's any consolation, we on this board are not the only ones whose progression into emotional maturity is, shall we say, a "work in progress". I have a friend who's a big Diana Ross fan and he likes to go on to the Mary Wilson board and stir things up...And you would not believe the stuff they battle over! Alleged conversations of 40 years ago where someone is slighted, etc.

Emotional maturity, though I have not yet experienced it, sounds a bit boring...highly overrated!

 

We must realize that EVEN WHEN someone states their opinion as fact, it is not. It's still their own opinion.

HOWEVER just so you know in the future when I say you're wrong, YOU'RE WRONG!!

I don't know why, but I've chosen myself to be EXEMPT from this fact vs. opinion thing. I just picked someone at random and it turned out to be me, so I don't argue.

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